Reduced sourcemarks in fos3, why?

Oh dear, lol.

That's what I was saying Tiffany

The change was made because leaving it as it is, makes the experience in wider omnibus/EEG content worse. When people just farm 1-2 instances and nothing but, it's not helpful to the game for a raft of reasons.

The irony is, people can't see how their behavior with respect to this point creates other issues they also like to complain about it.

Ok, that's what I thought was happening but the whole time/reward debate was overshadowing what appears to be actions taken against only a specific piece of content, which is FOS3.

It would be nice if the time/reward benefit could be retroactively adjusted to grant greater rewards for missions designed to take longer to complete. Perhaps such considerations can be programmed into future missions that are made to take longer.

Players getting better through osmosis is only a part of it and in fact, despite what you might assert, that's how all of us veterans learned.

We learned, through participation, observation and exposure as much as we learned by grouping ourselves up with other players and discussing and experiencing content.

You're legitimately advocating to rob new players of even having the chance at the experience itself because you want 4 extra marks from a piece of content, quite frankly it's ridiculous.

The issue with FOS3 and any instance like it, for the sake of beating a dead horse, is that if that is the only piece of content being run, NOTHING ELSE, gets done.

The end game community can virtue signal all it likes about how amazing it is at helping new players, but in reality it's all smoke and mirrors, none of its true, they don't care about new players, they only care about "getting something out of it", I've been playing this game since launch, that is how the end game community operates.

This game as it currently stands being 10+ years old attracts new players and pushes them to end game as rapidly as possible, because it has too, that's where a chunk of the population is, what it also then has to do, is find a way to push those very same players backwards, without having veterans stifle it.

That isn't done through pushing all players in to one instance because it rewards more.

Players including veterans need to be pushed in to as much content as possible so as to help the wider community and health of the game, they won't do it voluntarily and in fact the laughable part is that the kick back to this change demonstrates exactly that point, some of you just can't even see it.

The only difference here is that I would have gone further, I would still be going further. Not only would I be reducing instances like FOS3 to 6 marks, I'd be increasing instances like Khandaq to 20, Coast City alert to 15, that sort of thing, I'd also be changing the omnibus journal rewards back to daily rather than weekly.

I'd be making a daily EEG instance that rewards a stabilizer (on a daily loot lock). This is what makes this game a success, The only reason aspects of this game remain dead is because some players can't see the wood through the trees, they're actively advocating for things that keep the game dead, not revitalize it.

For years I argued the same points you did, for years I did it, realistically for selfish reasons, who cares about new games, just give me marks, let me squash content, let me destroy it - it taught nothing, it helped nothing, it only allowed me to help myself.

And for the record as well, highlighting other issues with the game to discredit this one (and I know you're not doing this, but others are) is nonsensical and absurd. There's lots of stuff that needs to be fixed in the game, there's lots of changes that could be made, but that doesn't mean the developers don't get to start somewhere.

We shouldn't dismiss positive changes simply because we personally felt the devs should have changed something else first, that isn't helpful to the game more widely either and only serves to conflate issues that might justifiably need addressing but aren't particularly relevant to each other, all things should be fixed, but there's a list and we're not all going to share the same priorities.

I agree, but I think it's probably a timing issue. FOS3 and DD were just immediate outliers, hopefully the developers do go through everything and take a quick look, perhaps it could be done at the same time as the new UI On Duty menu gets completed?

The kick back you'll get from the community of course is that they'll argue more marks should be received because of a sub-optimal group.

Unfortunately when it comes to mark rewards I think we need to reward based on the optimal group because the theory behind it of course is that sub optimal players eventually become optimal players.

We can't over reward garbage players that don't want to improve and just want to stay garbage players perpetually spending 20 minutes in FOS3

You're exactly right and it should have been, how different would this whole thing have gone down, had they also increased 2 instances to show they're looking at things more widely and they'll eventually get to it all - A whole heap differently I'd imagine.

The devs were right for doing what they did, there perhaps was just better ways to go about it, but hindsight is always lovely.

I said 'decisions', plural. Forced stat clamp, devalued subscription model, refusal to fix PvP, refusal to fix console specific bugs, no powersets planned, disappointing episode content, pushing predatory loot boxes during an economic recession, Allies (a system no one asked for), and now arbitrarily reducing reward payouts because they don't want people to farm two pieces of content... What's next?

But they're not going to do that because as they've demonstrated over the years it's far simpler to reduce the payout on two pieces of content vs increasing the payout on anything else.

It's unlikely that DI will take a look - they'll let the players figure it out for them. We'll be seeing similar one-liners of "X and X raid source marks amount was reduced because it was an outlier" in some random game update after everyone figures out what raid gives the most marks per minute. I think Necro is next on the chopping block.

Agreed - it will have to be based on an optimal group (or at least a few levels above average). The sub-optimals will need to pull out their wallet and buy artifacts if they want the max marks ratio (DI will be happy ).

Proxy I was engaging with you as an adult, chill on the debate lord antics and passive aggressiveness. I know yall like to do that sort of thing here on the forums but just pause it for 2 seconds.

My point was that you're trying to explain something that we all already understand the reasoning behind. Do you think we're too slow to understand WHY the devs made this change? The point is that we don't care because the change should've been made in the opposite direction (i.e. if you wanna de-incentivize fos spam, then they could've made mark accumulation more universal). You're trying to play devils advocate (for whatever reason) while also saying "but I don't ACTUALLY agree with it guys, I promise!"

I didn't mean you were coping as in you specifically are upset at the change (I even acknowledged your other posts and started with I know you aren't excited about it). I simply stated that the way you're trying to explain off this issue comes off as someone trying to cope with a bad decision on the devs part. It's not that deep, relax.

I'm also not "so upset" about this change, I rarely, if ever, spam (it's too mundane for my adhd attention span). I simply am baffled by the laziness and ineptitude on the devs part for making this change. They could have (again) simply upped the source marks on other longer instances as almost everyone has universally agreed they should have instead of "fixing" something that was in no way shape or form broken. It is becoming a trend with their decisions and that's the problem. Nobody and I mean NOBODY thought that anyone was getting too many source marks too quickly, and the fact that this whole thread is pretty much in agreeance shows that. If everyone in your player base disagrees with a change and yet you still try to justify and uphold it, then who are you making the game for??

So no I won't lose sleep over this nor am I seething over this change like you so desperately want to make it seem(I avoid omni and older content all together as its just not worth the headache), but that doesn't mean I can't point out the problem with this change. If that comes off as me being "Rawwwwr my source marks" then so be it I guess. I just feel that people's time should be valued, and this change does nothing but make people have to spend even more ludicrous amounts of their time than they already had to to farm their 5000 source mark pets that they wanna get on each toon. It's a ridiculous and frankly stupid way to try to artificially inflate the longevity of the game.

Who knows, now that the leadership has changed and there are now new hires plus per-existing people who have been promoted up, maybe a new direction will be taken where both these issues are addressed and new additions what will delight us could be implemented.

I am willing to give them the benefit of a doubt now that new people are in place. I truly hope there will be future considerations made in favor of the time/reward benefit for players as this has certainly shined a light on an underlying problem.

The game had been awash in "LFG for FOS spamming!" for the past few years; nobody who looks at LFG could honestly deny that FOS 3, at least, was a marks outlier and nerfing some of those marks is legitimate.

Oh, bull pucky. You're entitled to speak for yourself all you like, but that's the only person you get to speak for.

You're conflating all of the issues in an attempt to justify your position and continuing to drive your argument based on emotion.

You're effectively attempting to create a straw man by suggesting the presence of other outstanding issues, justifies not taking any action at all on this one.

If that were the case, we'd do nothing to improve this game, ever, unless "TheLorax" deemed it a priority, which is of course, absurd.

The list of fixes start somewhere and just because something isn't on your list either doesn't mean it doesn't need fixing.

There's a lot of emotional argument going on in this thread that amounts to "how dare you make me take longer to farm marks".

Explain it. how does having everyone farm FOS3, help improve the game? Go on put your best foot forward, let's hear it? How does over rewarding one instance so that nothing but that instance is primarily run, best for the game and creating a better playing experience?

You entire post to me was laced with its own passive-aggressiveness, you might not have intended it, but that's how it came across.

The whole premise of suggesting that I'm saying what I'm saying because I'm "appearing as someone trying to cope with a bad decision" is passive aggressive in its very nature, you're attempting to psycho analyze my state of mind - If I needed a shrink I'd pay to get one that's actually good.

You suggest I'm playing devils advocate for example when I'm actually not. I believe what I'm saying, I'm not defending the change for the sake of it, I'm defending this change because it was needed. The method in which the change went down could have been different or better, but the change itself was entirely appropriate.

Even you yourself have admitted that you understand the reasoning behind it, that might be true, but on the other hand, why is it then that you continue to argue against it when you clearly understand why the decision was made and why it was therefore required. Is that that you truly understand it or is it that you're throwing a tantrum and you think throwing that tantrum will get you your marks back despite clearly acknowledging you know that you shouldn't?

This thread is more divided than you're willing to admit, there's just a few very vocal people upset they lost their marks. The trouble with a decision like this is that the developers often have to make these changes in defense of the players incapable or less likely to be able to vocalize their requirements. Veteran players know exactly how to log in to forums, they're well versed in articulating what they want in game, new players shut out in the cold, with queues not popping are less equipped to vocalize themselves or their needs.

The developers make the changes some times knowing full well they'll get a bit of stick for it from the usual forum crowd who are virtually opposed to everything. - not to mention the wider omnibus haters you'll get up in here hating on quite literally anything associated with omnibus and the clamp system.

This topic is not as one sided as you'd like it to seem.

And as much as you want to sit here and scream about it, you really don't need to worry there's still more than enough source marks to be earned, you'll still earn that tier 3 pet in a week, even though FOS3 took a hit and the wider game will be a little better off for it.

This change to FoS3 and DD in particular doesn't affect me directly so there is no emotion. If I want to call out another pearl in the string of terrible decision making this game has seen over the past couple years, I as a former paying customer have every right to do so. And if that bothers anyone here regardless of what you think of me please try to understand that I couldn't care less.

Now there's your strawman because everyone in the game was not logging in to farm FoS3 or DD. And for the few people that were farming Source Marks on and off who exactly were they hurting? Do you have evidence to support that they would be running anything Omnibus related now that the payout has been shortened? Or do you just assume all end game players log in to pug expired content for ***** and giggles + miserable payout?

Not speaking for anyone else but what I see is yet another arbitrary decision that could have been a beforehand discussion or a fix towards something that is actually broken and not a fictitious problem.

I think people who want source marks are just going to find the next fastest way to get them and then spam the hell out of that, or they will just continue spamming FOS3 and taking reduced marks.

Either way, I don't think people are going to suddenly start running a bunch of other content

Basically, I don't think this fixes anything. Not sure it breaks anything either.

But it is going to upset some folks. Doesn't matter to me because I don't spam that stuff and on the occasions I do the weekly omnibus raid I'll just keep requeuing until I get a raid I find acceptable. If that doesn't happen after a couple of attempts then I just won't run omnibus or any of the other non end game raids.

Whether you like or dislike any other change is of no consequence to this discussion.

Your second paragraph also has nothing of substance with respect to what I asked in relation to furthering the discussion, you haven't explained at all how over rewarding FOS3 improves the game other than reiterating the selfish desire of "wanting more source marks".

But for the sake of entertaining one part of your post, there are constantly groups spamming FOS3 in LFG, when there's a double marks week such spam groups go off the chart and the entire week becomes consumed with FOS3 and DD spams.

Saying otherwise is just an outright lie - this proves it is exactly the outlier instance Mepps said it is.

I totally agree with you. I don’t spam these raids so it doesn’t affect me. So, this decision seems shortsighted to me. These spam groups were mostly formed outside of Omnibust. As you said they will either move on or accept reduced rewards. It is foolish to think that these players will just say “Oh well, it was fun while it lasted so back to the random que?” Come on, if you have played DC long enough you know that is not how this community operates.

My real question is why are we trying to get more players into Omnibust? I thought it was the greatest thing to ever happen to the game. I thought there would be sooooo many new players learning mechanics and getting their feats. It can’t be true. Well this change is a sure sign that something isn’t working as intended. Keep nerfing, it won’t matter because the spammers will figure out the fastest runs over and over again. Omnibust is usually a 1 and done. Get your run, get your box.

But alas, who cares. As the community divide grows and the devs continue to show a lack of care of player concerns, people will just move on. Hey life is beautiful, with or without DCUO.

Enjoy the game, however YOU choose to play it.

Wow....talk about daydreaming. Please...find the post where I EVER asked for loot locks to be removed with or without a clamp. Go ahead...I'll wait...or I'll wait for the retraction when you realize I NEVER said such a thing. And yeah....If I ran FOS3 for a few min and got 3 marks from the chooser (nothing to do with removing loot locks...they were in the standard choices...once a week) that was fine. I amassed 1000's of source doing that and similar runs on occasion or 'relevant' content...no spams...no resets required. Source was, is and has never been any issue for me. For others?....maybe you even...big issue apparently. Big enough that the trade of 'give us loot and terrible random-a__ runs' was an equitable deal. It's never been equitable for me...hence why I still dislike it.

I've stated several times in this thread, I don't really care about the marks as much as the reasoning behind the change. Work on your reading comprehension Proxy....it's slacking. If the reason really was the time/reward balance, these changes should have been accompanied by marks increases in excessively long runs. Not so. This was 1000% a move to curtail spams, to modify the way we (or some people at least) play. And as you are all for removing some marks from 'quick' runs, I'd guess you are all for adding them on 'slow' runs...right? And none of this really applies to the run itself as FOS3 is not guaranteed to be a '5 min' run. I've queued into groups where they've already been in there for 40+ min. It ONLY impacts spammers really....which, of course, is the intended goal.

And yes....NOW, I am forced to run with those 7 other people when I choose to run old stuff (hence why I also still want AQS, so I can do 4, 5, 6 or 7). That's why I run old stuff minimally now. Do you think the chances of me being less concerned about 'number 1' when that number 1 could carry a raid with little effort is greater, or worse than when it depends on how bad those other 7 people are...or how willing they are to ATTEMPT to learn something. Personally I was much more prone to helping out someone who needed the help when I knew the worst case was that I'd have to sweat a little if they failed...repeatedly. Now? "I gots to get paid yo!"....got no time for teaching outside of a very tight group of friends or league mates still remaining around. Not sure the omnis you are running, but most are still facerolls and the ones that aren't are slog/fail fests...the middle ground 'balanced' runs are few and far between. Slower in any case, but your 'new player' just gets to pew-pew a bit more now or gets left in a terrible run as it falls apart. Yeah....that's the great experience I want my new players to see...."moar pew pew!"....that'll fix our problems. In fact, it's working so well over the last year, THIS particular change was needed still.

Long story short, I play less....many MANY others have stated they play less or have quit entirely. I dropped 2 subs and haven't and will likely not, spend further money on the game. (Maybe if there is a decent BF sale) In the end, is that better or worse for the community? Apparently, according to you, it's better. We are of different opinions I suppose.

PS. Oh, and I'm sure you will pull the old "well I wasn't talking about 'you' when I said that:" defense but yeah...you were responding to me and said 'you'...so please...go find the post where I asked for no loot locks AND unclamped. I can find about 40 where I said the opposite, so finding 1 affirmative should be easy for you.

Whoa Whoa der now lil Horsey...dun go running off about the devs, imo they waited wayyyyyyyyyy to long to make the change and if they made the change then they should have upped some other instance with more source marks.

What they neglect to see is the fact people been running it for a year + now and all of a sudden the change is made like anything in life it should be a give and take instead of always just taking.

IMO, the omnibus needed way more work before it got released I mean I que omnibus I get the same instance all the time, the omnibus should have had more of a filter in place better instances but it isn't, I do get the devs have a lot on theirs hands now that so many devs have left but, that is not on you or me or anyone because we all still have to pay membership if people want, there is no discount for lack of content, lack of QOL changes and plain lack of a lot of things this game needs.