Reduced sourcemarks in fos3, why?

Actually it is a bad compromise, in fact it's actually not one at all, it's an inadvertent reversion of the change, I don't actually think you intended it to be RavNoc, but it is.

The reason it is bad, is because the groups farming and forming FOS3 will then form as they previously did and use omnibus to queue as a pre formed group (a pre formed group can technically still use omnibus) rather than the custom queue or walk in and the issue will return.

You've basically just restored a gate for them to get back to where they were and they'll use it.

Also Kreachure, the walk in isn't the issue. There's still loading times in the walk in, there's cut scenes in the walk in, it's all relative and all content has loading times and at times cutscenes.

People aren't walking in to FOS because it somehow avoids those, in fact after a walk in you have to break group to reset the instance etc. irrespective of how you get in the instance, it's still the quickest and still the most rewarding - you keep glossing past this point like it somehow doesn't matter.

DeitySupreme hit the nail on the head when he highlighted the extent this problem with you earlier in explaining that there was a "highlighted bonus" raid that was rewarding double marks, yet not being run because a regularly rewarding raid was still rewarding more.

You have to let that sink in Kreachure, a non bonus mark instance rewarding "non bonus level" marks was giving MORE than one rewarding double - that means the reward is disproportionate, it's quite literally basic math Kreachure. I note you refused to acknowledge the point and accused Deity of just arguing for the sake of it to dismiss the point, I suspect you'll do the same here. You can't just bury your head in the sand though in an attempt to make the issues go away.

Coming back briefly to your idea RavNoc I think it has some merit on some levels, but not based on queue type but rather whether or not you're grouped at all. Basically if you queue alone, 10 marks. The game would need to recognize members in the instance that are grouped and ungrouped. grouped at all 6 marks, playing solo 10 marks.

If you want full marks, play it alone, embrace the random, get the reward if it pays off, if it doesn't and you're in there 10-15 minutes, whatever then you'll still get 10 marks such as other raids like Khandaq - which in a bad group might be 1hr+

Necro takes 6-7 mins with a good group. It's being done right now...
Nerf them all!
Also you don't have to break group LOL. It can be done as long as everyone walks out.

Just a few things I want to address, since we've done a lot of back and forth already

I do KNOW they would have run FGS during the 2x week if the reward was proportionate to the effort, the reason I know that is because the same mentality that is driving them to spam FOS3 would drive them to spam FGS.

This isn't some big psychoanalytic minefield mate, it's just sheer mathematics lol.

People aren't spamming FOS3 for fun, they're spamming FOS3 because it's less time = most marks = most reward

With this change (to 6 marks) outside of a bonus week FOS3 probably even still remains the "go to spam raid" because 5 minutes for 6 marks isn't terrible outside of any bonus.

At least with the change however, and as long as the bonus doesn't include FOS3 itself, the bonus raid will stand a chance to attract players.

As I've already stated in this thread as well, some super long raids that take a long time could have their marks increased, so I don't disagree there.

In terms of trying to justify leaving FOS3 for example though at 10 marks, because new players might take 10-15 minutes my answer would be no and the reason is because you don't build the eco-system around a new group, you build it around the potential an optimal group has, because the system is also built around the predication that new players become better players not players being perpetually garbage.

If you want to remain perpetually garbage taking 10-15 minutes to finish a FOS run then you get what you deserve - In saying that however, see my post above this one. If the queued alone, you could give them 10 marks. In fact that would even likely over reward such a player if they just randomly got in there with a bunch of beasts and the whole issue of "new player" goes away.

Edit - Also I will say too Reinheld, it doesn't matter when I changed my mind, it doesn't matter why I changed my mind, it doesn't who might have convinced me or otherwise, it is my adult prerogative to do so, you might not like that I've decided to do so, but I get to do it anyway and you don't get to sit there and act like I'm not allowed - that's not how the world works. People change their minds all the time, the funny thing is, you'd be saying the exact same thing back to other people doing the exact same thing you're attempting to do to me right now, funny that huh.

It doesn't really matter with respect to the group anyway, my point remains the same, they're not going in there for the laughs Kreachure, they're going in there because less time = more marks = most reward, we both know it.

With respect to Necro, I'm well aware and if they became an issue to the extent FOS has where it's completely stifling other content being run, then yes, nerf hammer time and the nerf hammer keeps coming down until the eco system is balanced - it's pretty much that simple, yes, you're getting there.

You might not like it, but when all clamped content is equally appealing in terms of potential reward where no one suddenly thinks "#$%% I don't want to run that because the reward sucks" then the game will actually be in a better place.

There will always be something "slightly most optimal" no ones contesting that, but when you have a massive outlier, that gets farmed despite the developers running a raid at double, then yeah it doesn't take Albert Einstein to suddenly think "Houston we have a problem".

Perhaps, but you would have to fight with the Omnibus system to get it to pop, in which would take a lot of time. One random player would have to take one for the team and Custom Queue (and lose out on the full marks), and hope that it's actually the raid that's chosen for the group. You would still have to keep declining the wrong raid every 60 seconds until it finally pops up, no? Or is it simpler than that?

Creating a new problem of old players making new players fly through content and be "perpetually garbage" (as you said) at the end game. Or wait... was that an old problem? haha idk. you flip flop on the forums so much I can't figure out what you're trying to say.

My issue was there is no give and take. And there was no actual fix to the real problems that surround this. This was an ad for band-aids.
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LOL I 10000% agree with this, but you're chasing a unicorn when it comes to DCUO.

When you remove one massive outlier, the people find another. Double marks or not. People don't wanna run lackluster content in general LOL. Wonderverse was just a bad grind.

People would likely use a dummy PC session to queue and it would probably pop quite frequently, People used to farm out PVP stuff using similar methods even when the population was a lot bigger.

I guess you could just give FOS3 absolute last priority in the omnibus queue lol

The type of player that I mean when I say "perpetually garbage" are those that don't want to learn period, they have no willingness to learn period, no desire to learn period, no wish to get better, period.

We've all experienced them. They'll go in to TSW and never block, period, they'll use gag glove and sonic cry in melee range on Doomsday only to be flung a mile across the map into the Ocean only to scream "Why didn't anyone pick me up".

But they'll still expect 10 marks - we've all seen them lol.

I'm glad we agree on something then, see it's not all bad lol

And yes, the people will find another and the developers will nerf another and we'll have this thread again entitled "Why did you Nerf Necro - it wasn't that bad!"

They have every right to be annoyed. These raids and methods have been there forever. There's no reason endgame players need to do other content for extra source marks. They're endgame players. They beat the game and are waiting for new content. They're now doing the efficient methods to get the extra mundane crap that they want or need. It's a strange way of dictating how and what players do without giving anything back.

Did we forget about artifact catalysts and ally alliance?

The thing with EG players as well is define exactly what makes a player EG, when do they become EG?

The trouble with an MMO is EG players are within a vast spectrum of individual progress.

Are we EG when we reach CR350 or EG when we no longer have a use for anything but catalysts and alliance?

Even then, there's a heavy motivation to farm source marks for things like catalysts and alliance for one reason - "Broker".

More source marks doesn't just mean more progress, it means more in game money, more in game money = more reward (especially time capsule stuff and booster bundles)

When you've got items going for a billion dollars, 2.5bil+ farming source marks as a way to gain revenue can become appealing to some, including EG players, especially if they have nothing else to do anyway.

I can agree with the fact that the player driven economy needs to be fixed. I'll stand with you on that hill.

I’m not opposed to this change, but as others have mentioned, some of the extremely long alerts and raids should reward extra marks

Nah bro...you don't KNOW they would have spammed FGS. While you can math that out all you want, a less paying 'quick' run might still attract more than a 2x 'long' run. Or a long run, even at 2x might not look as good as something else. Guess we'll find out next time WV gets a spotlight and we see it's bombarded for the 2x.

True Story: A few years ago I had a pretty good car I liked. No reason to change it out, but then a buddy had a circumstance come up where he had a car he HAD to sell. It was a very good deal, so I offered to buy it, though I didn't really need the car. He ended up catching a lucky break and was able to resolve his situation. So with the good deal off the table....I just didn't buy a new car. I didn't run off to the dealer and say, "welp...I was gonna buy this great deal car, but it's not an option....so sell me something else not quite as good, even though my current car is fine".

People may do FOS3 spams because it was so good....that does NOT mean they will just spam whatever in it's place....oh, you can guess they would...and on many you might be right. But give it up with your all-knowing opinion.....it's just an opinion.

And I'm still not sure how FOS3 being spammed kept anyone from putting together a FGS run if they wanted it. The only ones who should have had that stance were the hardcore spammers who would pull down 5 min runs. That's not a huge percentage of the player base...is it?

You talk about the eco-system being built around the 'optimal' group....but really, is that what you are assuming we want? People more concerned with the best paying, most return runs? F the new guys I guess, right? Wouldn't a better eco-system gravitate to all levels of players in all content? And yeah...many groups will probably take 10-15 min to finish FOS3....They are called 'omni' runs....ever try one? The problem with this whole discussion is that you (and others) want to mix the argument between these 'spam grinders' and the average random player. They are not the same, yet the same 'fix' was applied to everyone. And again...it won't really do anything except shift the spam focus elsewhere...maybe not that even. It remains to be seen. COU probably would have won out over FOS3 this week's 2x, but the next one might not be as quick and easy.

And yes, I acknowledge you also said they could have added more marks on 'bad' runs as an incentive....yet you seem to be way less vocal on that point. Hopefully Mepps will mention that in a coming update so you can ramp up your rallying cry.

And yes...you can change your mind as much as you want for whatever reason you want. It just makes it that much less impactful when you try to back up your points with your opinions, when those opinions can change with the breeze. Hopefully by the time they nerf Necro or FFR FVR during the conversion you'll have changed your opinion....again. Heck, maybe I'll even take the counter argument just so we can go again.

My opinions don't change with the breeze, they change when convinced by a rational, logical argument put forward to the contrary. Your debate here that the opposite view remains more convincing and that I somehow shouldn't have changed my mind has been nothing but horribly lackluster.

Even now you're too stubborn to see the mathematical reality and just cast off that mathematical reality as "proxystar's opinion"

It isn't my opinion it's the mathematical reality of the time versus reward scale motivating players to run any given instance.

Pre-formed groups form the runs for the marks, they don't form FOS spam groups for fun, it isn't about the fun, it's about obtaining the maximum amount of reward for the least amount of time spent possible; because it is about efficiency in reward, not entertainment. - they're not helping the community, they're helping themselves.

If someone is running "whatever content" they want, they do so regardless of the reward, they don't even care for the reward or its the least of their concern, They don't even care how long it takes in the end but that is not we're discussing here, that is not the problem that is being fixed here and it doesn't matter whether that person is/was rewarded 10 marks in FOS or 6 marks in FOS, they never gave a **** and they still won't give a ****.

If FGS was providing the best reward for the amount of time spent then people would run that instead of FOS, period, there's no debate about it, it's not opinion, it is a mathematical fact.

The same reason they're spamming FOS would become the exact same reason they would begin spamming FGS because in the space of say an hour, or whatever period of time they have available to play, that instance would provide them with the biggest reward for their time. period, end of discussion. You cannot deny this fact and continuing to do so will only make you look silly

The instance being run in this context is all about the reward, people could be punching a dead horse in a paddock, as long as the reward was the greatest, they'll punch that ****in horse, all. day. long, until they've gone insane.

The reason end game players do this and approach it with this mentality isn't to do with entertainment, it's everything to do with progress and profit.

1. Catalysts and Alliance - Artifact Progress + Ally Progress + Significant Broker Profit
2. Combat Pets - Damage Progress (Avoidance of Broker Cost or RNG), Cosmetic Desire
3. Purchase of Styles - Feat Points + Character Progress

It's no surprise some players in game are poor for example, when, they're clueless as to the fact EG players are spamming cheap easy source mark instances to more efficiently make money through this type of method, yet they'll for sure sit there and complain about the economy.

Yes, players can be upset about the change, yes players can be angry about the change, but please don't pretend like you don't understand why the change was made. You know exactly why the change was made and you know exactly why the change is justified.

The anger however all comes from a selfish desire to preserve the outlier ability to farm more source marks than is fairly warranted, that same selfish desire was honestly what probably resulted in my response not so long ago in the HH thread, it's exactly the same reason other people also responded that way in that very same thread, it's exactly the same reason people are responding the same way as they are in here now.

Take another example when Blackest Dawn was providing excessive marks during a bonus week that resulting in that instance all but consuming the week for everyone wanting source marks - yeah I'm sure they were all running Blackest Dawn innocently for fun as well, had nothing to do with the marks being optimal.

This time, I'm just deciding to be honest about it rather than whip up hysteria and emotion to try and suggest the change isn't anything but warranted. AND that isn't projecting that's just the cold hard truth of this matter. I knew then the reason why that was fixed, I know now why this is also being fixed - if anything my change in opinion isn't a change, rather an improvement in opinion through a greater willingness to accept the truth and be honest about it - clearly something some others here are still unprepared to do.

It was providing too many source marks for the time and effort it took, so much so it even made a highlighted bonus raid look like a piss take, the problem became too obvious for the developers and the camel finally got too many straws on its back that it broke.

When and not if another raid takes its place, the exact same thing will happen again, that's not a matter of if, that's just a matter of when and you can guarantee we'll be back in here with the same drawn out bull #$%^ arguments, we'll see then whether anyone else has decided to be honest about it.

And again, that is an opinion, based on your assumption that the people who are spamming FOS3 would have spammed FGS if the pay were differently distributed. Might they just NOT have spammed? No? Oh, yeah, because you are talking only about hardcore spam assembled groups. Those are NOT the only people who would run FOS3 or DD (or COU or FGS or Necro....or whatever).

And yeah....I know the math. And if the only people playing the game were a bunch of 8 man groups who only like spamming, you'd be correct in your assumptions. IS that all this game is now? Spam groups? Again....that's pretty sad.

Strip away all the rest of it....and this is the most important thing. Pre formed groups of 8 spamming FOS3, or FGS or COU or Necro....how does THAT group, grinding marks, be it 6. 10 or 20, impact the overall 'eco-system' good or bad? Oh, yeah...it will impact those in that spam group, but if the only people we were talking about here were the spammers, apparently that is the eco-system you are concerned about most. Personally I give a rat's butt about the spammers....let them spam...or not...let them get 10... or not.

See I care more about the non spammer eco-system. That's the one I'm in (when I'm in the game at all). If I were running much this last week, I'd guarantee I'd have accepted an omni FOS3...or DD (both quick)...OR FGS (a few 'bonus' marks), or a few of my other 'normal' Omni raids if they popped, but the only one I'd have queued directly would have been FGS. I had a few friends running this last week and yeah....they ran a few FGS's...heck maybe more than 1 in a sitting even (although apparently NO-ONE was running it, right? Amazing they even got it to pop once....amiright?). Personally I wasn't in any of those and just hit my weekly outdoor DKs and a few TSW as well as some STU runs as I was not in much this week and STU is winding down.

And for the other people in the same eco-system as me, those that don't spam, a few runs got dinked a few marks while none were increased. That's really all there is to it....no 'balance'...no 'eco-system' wide impact...and not a 'fix' for anything.... Well...no 'fix' unless you are a spammer.

Honestly, if our main 'eco-system' are these spam groups....not sure that speaks very well about the state of the game, omni, the clamp, the current DLC or anything.

Because not everyone that’s spamming is in a premade group. There are people who spam by random queuing while they do other things. This does have an impact on the que system. And even if every single person spamming were in a premade group, which is not the case, you still haven’t said how it’s right that a raid not under an bonus gives more than a raid that is under double bonus.

How many marks was FGS giving during its bonus week?

Ah...but according to Proxy they are....they are '5 min' power spam runs, otherwise, why would FOS3 always be better than a FGS 2x run? Please...see his above post on math, cause if you are queuing up, the math does not work in FOS3's favor every time. It only really works when the runs are very quick and back to back. Random people, random queue times, random raid times will all throw the math off and these 'spams' you are referring to all become hypothetical....so I'll give you one of those.

If FOS3 pops after a 2 min queue and you pick up 3 people who won't switch off troll and 1 guy who stands outside, that will NOT be a 5 min run....for argument's sake, let's say it's 10 (which might be conservative if queued up). That's 12 min. Another few min to re queue up while you run some outdoor dailies and you get another FOS3 pop....but someone declines....another 45 seconds and it happens again. 3.5 min before you step foot in the door. This time you draw a nice group, tank, heal, troll and 5 dps. Jump in, start burning but the healer...well he doesn't really know how to heal. Wipe. Give him a quick inspect and he has no gear or arts. A few people leave after realizing this. New heal shows up after a few min and 8 min later, you finish up ok.

I'm sure you could agree that neither of these runs are out of the realm of reality for an omni populated run, solo queuing....right? Even if the argument is made "well I'd go battle role and just finish it up", A) that's not everyone and B) that wont' be 5 min either. Sure you could land in one that finishes in 6 or 7 min...but you might end up in one that falls apart just as easy.

That would end up around maybe 30 min for 2 runs...20 marks prior to the change. And that's assuming you get the 2 runs done. FGS Unless it goes very badly) would still be better. Nah bruh, if the argument is that FOS3 is better than a 2x FGS, sorry....you have to assume pre made groups on repeat spams....not queue up and omni populated. Not saying people didn't queue up for FOS3 and DD last week...I'm sure they did. But I'd think they MIGHT have queued up a 2x FGS too...even if spam groups were not forming for it.

And I don't have to explain how a raid that isn't on a bonus gives more than a raid on 2x...cause that was NOT happening. FOS3 gave 10 per run. DD gave 8. FGS gave 20 (22 with the head augs). The ONLY thing that changes those numbers is successive QUICK runs...or spam...where the average pay out OVER TIME might pay better. And again, to assume that EVERY time, you have to assume premade groups...which are NOT picking up people out of the Omni 'eco-system'.

You don't get to have it both ways....these are efficient spam groups netting 'more' marks or they are random runs that pull in random queue up players and have random results.