Make Fire viable again....some ideas on fixes.

Small adjustments to Fire could make it viable again like it was many many moons ago.

LT said in another thread called "how broken is Rage and Electric"

(Based on statistics from Census of toons above cr225 as of 12-6-17)
Players using fire above 225
"Fire |1 |0.67 %
DPS PFTT lags because of the long channels with back-loaded damage. The hardest Tank to play by far. Some of it's abilities, like Overheat and Spontaneous Combustion, can wind up doing next to no damage if the target dies, and underperform in the best cases. Good single-target damage might make it more popular if Boss Damage were broken out separately."

It speaks volumes about what is needed for Fire. Many dont use Fire because of difficulty of tanking and the backend damage (if and when it even hits)

This is what I propose for DPS
Make absorb heat like artic gust. Multi Target. Fire needs a good damage power without the long cast time to spam and do good damage on the front end. Like a flame throwing animation.
Fireburst needs to be less interruptable.
Fireball Barrage SC is still missing targets.
Volcanic Calamity is good...but being 100% SC make it less available to use to make up some ground. So either make it a 50% with a slight reduction in damage or keep it a 100% and buff it to make up for the lack of use it comes with.
Fires DOT's are sooooo weak. They need a major buff. Hard to fathom even setting up alot of DOT's. Overheat gets wasted alot. I never use it anymore. Buff the DOTs plz.

I rarely tank anymore...but when I do in Earth3 content my health bar does alot of up and down. If you have alot of sp it makes things a little easier, but Firetanking takes some skill to be good at. Its not nearly as easy (or user friendly) to use like Ice. Buff the defense and healing properties potential. Maybe make it beneficial to be active or blocking. Fire can hold a lot of health but doesnt hold up alot of it with the defense not mitigating enough of the damage. Anyone that Fire tanks on a more regular basis can prolly give better ideas on what would help Firetanking be on par with the other tanks.

I know there are issues with other powers and maybe they need priority...but seeing the number of users and the declining popularity of the powerset I think that justifies a fix. Lets make Fire great again. Even if its dps role or tank role. I would prefer both...but I wouldnt be upset if we got at least something to make Fire appealing to players again.

The new Tank vs Tank thread from LT just confirmed what i was thinking: Fire Tank is once again in the bottom by far.
I got the feeling during the revamp, just by reading the changes. And started to confirm that while running raids.
Fire Tank got nerfed too much during the revamp.
The new shield is the weakest shield of all. The heals are the weakest heals. And the defense buff is the lowest buff. Fire is the weakest tank in every aspect. And on top of that...is the most power hungry.
Before the revamp, Fire was in a very good spot. Yes, you had to block a lot, but it was very strong. Now, even blocking is weak , and that is suposed to be the strongest aspect of the power...
Everything they did, made the power weak. They destroyed it.

For things like Alerts or regular Raids is fine, because everything is easy. But it shows its true colors in the Elite Raids.

I ran with a beast fire dps today in PANE. He was 2nd dps and we completed it. Ppl need to practice their powers and stop waiting for the YouTube video to drop

I do very well as a fire DPS. One of the few that do. My builds came from countless hours of testing, and alot of trial and error. I completely agree...dont wait for someone to give you a build. Find your own...and what works best for your play style. I have issues with some things with Fire that I think merit some adjustments. Fire is very unpopular amonst high end game players for various reasons. Not the easiest to play with. Takes some know how and skill to compete damage wise...and to be a good tank. I just believe a couple adjustments to the powerset and it will regain some popularity. I dont want to be OP by power alone...like Electric or Rage...but want to compete on an even playing field. Rage and Electric to me are too simple. Like Munitions. Which is my alt. Very easy to use. I gotta work to compete. There are bugs and setbacks that put Fire at a disadvantage from the jump. Good players can overcome it...but the general population struggles for the most part.

Players using fire above cr225....you sure this is relevant info? People who don't get non-armor pieces will never show up in such statistic. Ppl without elite gear won't show up. Considering cr227 is max atm I believe CR225 is a bad standard for any statistic

I see what you are saying. The point is at the highest of end game content (toons above full vendor 195 gear cr224) out 150 only 1 is Fire .067 percent. Electric is like about 20%. So playing in elite Earth3 content seeing fire in dps or tank roles are the biggest minority. The issues and difficulty to play with powerset makes it the popular to use. When we look at 224 and up it jumps to 36 toons using fire. I think that tells alot about whats going on with fire. There are more Sorcery and Mental at those cr's. Imo there are so few of us fire toons there's not alot of voices to represent this powerset...I just feel like its like the "red headed step child" of powersets. Kind of going unnoticed and not enough people calling for some adjustments. Firetanking is pretty well known as the worst of all tanks...and not alot of people talk about fire dps. Before anyone can say "get good" or you dont know your power...check with Guardians of Power...the league I am in. Alot of those people would vouch for me...I'm above average with Fire and my sp total is on the lower 200 side. Fire needs some adjustments....nothing more, nothing less. Someone's got to say something...I'm not hearing much, so I took the liberty to say something.

I was quoted a little bit out of context here: in the other thread (which focused more on Rage and Electric) Moja pulled the data for 210+ and someone else posted the 225 numbers to show that % wise they're even more skewed. I looked at the data posted in that thread, sorted it and commented.

You may be correct that there are better thresholds to look at. Doesn't invalidate my comments (IMO).

Right. I didnt think I was too much out of context...and reasoning for using that quote is to point out the rarity (or minority) of Fire in the highest end game content. My thought was not too may high level players use fire, because of the disadvantages it has. It does in alot of ways make it harder using fire, and most people shy away from that. I just want to keep bringing attention to fire because I feel like it is overlooked alot. I personally dont mind a little bit of a challenge to be competitive, but I feel like Im always at a disadvantage versus toons that are Electric, Rage, Earth. The damage potential is great with Fire, with an above average user....but not with the average player.

If I did take it out of context, my apologies. I just cant help but notice the lack of Fire toons in Earth3 content. Very much in the minority like mental and sorcery. I found the thread from which I quoted you from very interesting. IMO...Electric and Rage are either overperforming or everything else is under. I hate when they nerf powersets. I believe other powersets just need adjustments to make them viable. I really like what they did for Ice, I'm just hoping for the same with Fire...and I just dont see anyone else really saying anything about it. I take that as there's just not enough people using fire to really notice some issues aside from the obvious fire tank being the worst tank. Numbers show that in the tank vs tank thread...I believe you made as a matter of fact. You brought a little attention to fire tanking...Im just hoping to bring some to dps.

But don't mistake high cr too much for (elite) players. I know enough players beating the elite raidS with cr220 and lower. 225 at this point just shows the ability to beat PanoE and spending replays at a minimum.
For "endgame" rather look at the minimum cr for the latest episode.

That being said, I still agree that fire isn't used much in end content. But the two main reasons imo are:

- Elec, Rage are just stronger in any aspect (from?) for DPSing
- Ice Tanks are waaaaaaaaaaay easier to play and more forgiving.

Even though Fire can easily pull it's own weight, it requires more effort. And most players just weight effort heavier than just spending 10 bucks.

I probably spec to fire again in a while but I have never been ice before so I wanted to test it (and I can verify the easiness of ice tanking). Fire has a cool way of tanking but the way it is presented is supbar. Regarding dps I think fire only needs a slight buff but not much.

Fire can do well DPS wise. I think Overheat and Spontaneous Combustion should be buffed the same way Electrogenesis was during the test phase, for much the same reasons.

Fireburst seems to be calibrated as a ranged attack, but due to the mid range and back loaded damage it should probably be buffed to melee strength.

That's it. Wouldn't change another thing about the DPS side of Fire. Even without these changes Fire is probably my favorite DPS power ATM.

My suggestion to Make Fire Great Again is reduce the cast time from Mass Detonation and Fireburst to between 1.4-1.8 seconds both. I think that's sufficient.

Sorry for the double post but guess what?

Frost Blast (Ice), non-clippable, full range and long cast time does more damage than Mass Detonation (Fire) which is also non-clippable, full range and has a long cast time. Both should hit the same damage. If Mass Detonation hits the same as Frost Blast does we can Make Fire Great Again without touch Fireburst.

Wasn't the equivalent to Fireburst Frostblast?

I wouldn't mind making them both midrange powers with the damage adjusted accordingly again...

Sorry , but NO. You guys keep using super skewed data...Of course MOST the people playing at 224+ CR are most likely going to be the "try-hards" that in general have to be at the top. But let's not throw things way outta wack here

Fire as a DPS is FINE end of story. As I tank , I dunno since my tank is Atomic. I've read LT's thread and assume the tanking side needs some attention


Secondly (and I'm gonna take heat for this)
I highly doubt most of the people that are ranting either play Rage or Electric. Rage is PHENOMENAL where you can melee for sure, but when you can't it falls hard. Electric is a add killing machine (when 3 or more or present) but single target is WAY below avg...In fact it's so bad you will need 2 armories and have super duper Heat vision to even stay competitive.

Lastly and to your point, you can't help but notice the lack of Fire toons in E3 content. Here is census pull of all toons that are E3 minimum entry CR. Take a look at the numbers, cause what you are observing / saying is not true. In fact there are more Fire players in E3 content than Light (my main power) Celestial, Mental, Nature and damn near on par with Rage. The one that blows my mind is how low Gadgets is...
Since it in the right hands will usually beat an Electric toon in ALL content.

Powerset Characters Percent
Atomic 1,373 6.14 %
Celestial 817 3.65 %
Earth 2,023 9.05 %
Electricity 3,150 14.09 %
Fire 1,278 5.72 %
Gadgets 1,289 5.77 %
Ice 1,966 8.79 %
Light 999 4.47 %
Mental 1,043 4.67 %
Munitions 1,406 6.29 %
Nature 953 4.26 %
Quantum 1,559 6.97 %
Rage 1,346 6.02 %
Sorcery 1,425 6.37 %
Water 1,729 7.73 %

Fire is in a great spot.

I don't have all my notes in front of me, but what I remember from way back in testing is that when I looked at cast time closely mass detonate and frost blast had close to the same dps

Sadly not, Fireburst is midrange only while Frost Blast is full range.

As one who mains as Fire. I just dont agree. It's not in a great spot to me. Based on what grounds is it in a great spot? Granted its not the worst. I just think its overlooked on its issues. I play fire 90% of the time. It is my main. All damage is back end loaded. It's hard to gauge damage potential on sparring targets to me because of the long cast times or animations. Its not like Sorcery, Mental, or Quantum damage wise. It's actually the most popular powerset out of all players active of all levels (but, it's also one of the free ones). The tank is the worst tank hands down. Dps just needs some adjustments. Dots are weak, need some buffs on burst powers, and some powers and supercharges are still missing targets. Fireburst is the most interruptable power I have ever used. It doesnt need an overhaul on the dps side (tank it does imo) but some small adjustments like Ice got.

That's fine if you don't agree because I also main as fire and I have almost no issues with damage or tanking. I make sure to knock my target down before I use Fireburst so I don't get interrupted. Flame Cascade and is the only thing I would like looked at.

Can I ask you what's your loadout?