GU 44: Quantum Advanced Mechanics

by no other power you are excluding ice, gadgets, mental, and to a lesser extent rage

The only other power that has a similar vulnerability is rage if you are using the berserk SC as it is the same mechanic that quantum depends on. With ice, if you are knocked down, you break out and just throw arctic gust again. Your damage loss is due to the fact that you are not attacking as you could have already done 12k dmg before the knock down. In quantum, before the knock down you will have done maybe 1200. Your damage loss is due to a loss of retrospective loss of amplification. The amplification is multiplicative, and you lose the opportunity to add damage to the bucket to be amplified as the window to amplify is limited by time.

This is true

I'd have to say Celestial has a greater vulnerability than any of those being discussed. Of course, it's getting an update. This IS Quantum's update.

Both ice, mental, gadgets suffer from exactly what you describe.

Mental and gadgets to the exact same extent and quantum is already stronger mid to melee range then both of those. Or you can stand farther back and have more options then both gadgets and mental because you don't have to carry or use a different power.

I am not including powers that have not been updated, as that would result in an inappropriate and irrelevant analysis.

I want to draw attention to this major weakness before it goes live and never gets fixed. Most are fixated on what is being done to testing dummies in an isolated situation. Very few people other than myself have commented on actual game play, which is why testers need to notice this substantial weakness. That is why the modifiers need to be slightly elevated for this reason to elevate the damage to compensate for the immense loss of damage compared to other powers. If this is not corrected now, quantum will not only underperform, but will suffer increasing losses as stats increase.

I am only suggesting a 10% increase.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you, in principle.

I know. And I appreciate it

Just wanted to express to others why this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

I like how forgiving Quantum's AM is and I'm not just saying that to be disagreeable. I've used it in the alerts while getting knocked around and I like how it stores up your Time Bomb damage until the next cast if you miss. And I like how Time Bomb is one of the first things you cast in the rotation so its likely to at least get some damage in when interrupted unlike gadgets or mental. And you can just fall back on WM for low life enemies.

I think the challenge is the lack of evidence. I believe the situation but how do you demonstrate it empirically? I've heard mention of losing millions but I have seen so much as a scoreboard pic or video. It's hard to say whether 10% is reasonable or too much. We do know it's clocking higher sparring target numbers than anything else by 1-1.5K. It's hard to say that's not enough. I think that claim needs more than words. At least the sparring target stuff has videos. I never saw anyone post a single video of taking Quantum into an instance. It's hard to evaluate the circumstances behind words alone. You know what I mean?

This is a legitimate point. Of course, most powersets and updates, on release, are not perfectly tuned. I suspect this will be no different. Once people start running the new content with it, more anecdotal evidence will pop up, and adjustments will, no doubt, be made. Given that GU 44 will release on Tuesday, I don't expect additional changes in the interim.

Yeah, there probably won't be any changes. As for alerts, the team structure will more determine the situational damage. And as another poster mentioned, although casting time bomb first allows some damage, it's still not that of other powers due to the casting truncation.

The biggest difference is over long term. I did not record the last video that best exemplified the issue. In the beginning of the raid with just the adds, quantum was on par with the other dps: sorcery and nature. However, after the first boss encounter until the hades fight, knockdowns/dodges etc. resulted in sorcery having over a 5 million lead. We were both picking up at a comparable rate, and were geared and modded similarly.

Will it be the end of the world if quantum goes live as is? No. It may turn out to be fine in general content. However, in higher end competitive play, you may see some unnecessary struggle. This will likely not impact the majority of people. I just want the testers to consider all aspects before putting their stamp on a power to be released.

5 million in damage is a big difference! You can't say that its balance. Disparities like that are what you get from the current content against the other powersets now. There is good data being produced against the sparing targets but what about the content? Where is the data running raids against HL and Rage? I prefer this gets released when ready not to meet a set date on the calendar.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that is the most common scenario. I'm just saying that is the best example I have of the vulnerability of the power and why people need to stop testing only on those dummies and actually make legitimate comparison in real game play.

The real problem here is that you are thinking about it in a competitive nature. If anyone thinks of it this way than the only "competitors" are those with damage over time potential which mechanics like Quantums will generally not have.

Lets flip your instance example around where no one other than support roles pickup others or deal with active mechanics. Now you have Quantum directly doing damage alongside the likes of Sorcery, Nature, Electricity, etc. This will emulate what has been done with Sparring Targets.

It's not that testing shouldn't be done in instances but that if you are going to do so it needs to be a controlled test. Unfortunately few instances present what would be "controlled" tests. Your quote of working in the competitive space is an example of this as to be competitive means you will generally need damage that is sustainable through not directly applying that damage. If SOE balances around that space then you will expect Quantum, Mental, Gadgets, Ice, Fire, Celestial, Light and Rage to all do more damage compared to Nature, Electricity, Sorcery and Earth when directly doing damage and not playing with the objectives. Why? Because when both do need to play with the objectives the four latter powersets would otherwise be more damage. Now you could make exceptions and say Gadgets and Celestial do have some damage over time thus should do less in this competitive space but that brings up more problems than it solves.

Thus in order to control the results of a test they should be directly compared without the uncontrolled nature of an instance which may show a bias to those with damage over time and those that do play the objectives. This is where Sparring Targets come into play and what I think is the best way to approach damage: show the powersets directly beside each other in a controlled setting.

Now that is not to say instance testing is not useful. It is. For example the "overload" bug where Time Bomb would take the damage from fallen targets and direct it at the remaining target(s) would not have been found if not for instance testing. Instance testing also verifies if a rotation is practical when running content. For example can you actually get close enough to do enhanced damage?

However taking an instance and looking at it in a competitive space is not a great idea because of the reasons I outlined above. In addition to things I did not mention such as time to completion, number of targets hit (how many adds were present), deaths, mistakes in instance mechanics (adds healing the boss as an example), etc. They are generally not a controlled test.

If a gadgets player and a quantum player stood next to each other the whole raid and each ore preformed their rotations and they were close enough so every time one was interrupted, knocked down, stunned, rooted, or ko'd so the same action hapoemed to the other player the quantum player wins.

The numbers bear out quantum has a better mid melee yield

If you both wanted to back up to a safer ranger distance quantum has the advantage in that it does not have to change powers or load outs it just moves farther back.

I'm not 100% sure what quantum needs if anything, I am 100% sure a 10% damage buff to what can already push the highest DPS in a perfect scenario is to much.

There is value in raid testing DPS in practical application powers but raid tests are not balance tests. One player may just be better, or have played thought the content and be more familiar with map, or have a better connection, get perfect value out of trinket and supercharge rotation, be more familiar with older power (sorcery) then a freshly revamoed power (quantum) and seeing and reacting to new environments and new things is old hat and muscle memory. Those fractions of a second add up.

I considered what you have to say and looked at the evidence you brought to the table given what you sharing I it would be a bit much to throp a 10 % buff on your recommendation.

You might end up being right, but if I was running the ship I wouldn't feel comfortable with what your asking for what your showing.

If a month from now with a month worth of live data they need to adjust it up or down based on field results, cool but that's with enough data to have an accurate gauge

I am not inferring the testing should be in isolation. We already have the sparring target data. There are obviously other confounding variables in instances, but balance has to include real play. You are right that there are downsides to making an adjustment, which is why I am asking more for it to be considered and tested rather than just screaming that a power needs a buff like a moron.

Also, Quantum's AM is vastly different in principle from any other and leaves it with this unique vulnerability. The only other idea that I had to mask this vulnerability is to have time bomb detonate on break out, with its cool down reset so you can get the brief amplified damage from whatever you did before, have it go off, and then be able to immediately restart. If this route is acceptable, I think it would actually be better than just increasing the damage for balance. There may be a way to abuse it, which would require testing. Considering its dropping on Tuesday, I think it's too much to undertake atm.

Also, PvP is by definition competitive. Whether you like it or not, the culture of DCUO has become competitive among dps even in PVE, and if you want people to enjoy themselves, the powers need to be competitive with each other in all content.
If you are uncomfortable with my 10% mark, at least try 5% and see how that goes.

"Real play" is subjective because of the attitudes of groups towards who should be the one to deal with objectives (ie some groups say not Damage at all).

PvP is a different scenario and can be adjusted separately as has been demonstrated in the past. It should not bare weight on what PvE can do competitively.

Competitive PvE would involve each person in the competition to play in the same rules. If the Quantum player is the only playing the object then of course they will lose out. If all players play the objective then, like I said, those with damage over time win out and everyone else loses. If this were the point of balance you'd balance it of course by giving those with burst damage more potential to do more damage. However the caveat here is that by doing so you ensure that these same powersets will outdo those with damage over time in head-to-head battles where objectives do not need to completed by anyone other than support roles. In this case objectives mean anything not related to putting out damage.

If you balance in the manor described above you will of course cause controversy between powersets. Thus the definition of competitive PvE should include any player competing directly with each other without the bias of an objective. Why? Because as explained objectives may be handed out unbalanced. Coincidently this applies to competitive PvP too as any PvP player playing the objective (capturing a node) will be losing damage compared to one just focusing on raw damage. This gives a bias towards the raw damage player.

No matter how you look at ir you will end up comparing Damage to Damage without any bias caused by objectives. This is what Sparring Targets already provide for testing.

I just wanted to point out that I hadn't done any testing of Quantum in any instances and that's a fair criticism. That said, I don't take my testing or my opinion as definitive. I've provided my tests with full videos, combat logs, and regular retests to provide a consistent singular data point. I know I wasn't the only one doing it, even though I may have been the most consistent about publishing my results. I know I'm probably the least educated about Quantum but I do hope I added something that probably didn't raise the bar for meaningful dialog but I do think helped maintain the bar high.

Instance-based testing is very important. It's not something I could commit to but, then again, there's plenty of us with Test Server access. I've played my singular part as others have theirs. Unfortunately nobody really stepped up to the plate. That means none of us can really comment. To be fair, some have but they haven't shared much more than their sentiments afterwards.

I have my opinions about what should happen next but since I'm the least educated about Quantum, I try to temper how I voice them. In lieu of that, I do put my voice behind encouraging others to do instance-based testing. Not just that, record your runs and show combat logs for them. Disclose what other DPS powersets were in the group and what their CR/stats may have been. Politely try to acknowledge what skill level you think they were at. Address how the run went. I don't think it needs to be as fully pristine and controlled as a sparring target test. Just enough to convey a feel for what to expect when it's taken to the field. If enough people jump in and do that, the quality of our feedback and accuracy of our recommendations (collectively) will dramatically improve.

I think drfencerman is representing that voice for instance-testing more than anyone else is and that's a boon for the community. I'm just trying to encourage others to jump in and take it to the next level. It's probably too late with Quantum going live so soon but that can be part of the Celestial AM or even part of how Quantum may see future buffs/nerfs/adjustments. I think we all want to get away of the days of scoreboard chasers giving feedback solely based on them getting topped in content with no context of why that happened.

Okay, I can definitely confirm that there's still a bug with Time Bomb not detonating. I was doing a few rotations on the single target lvl 1 sparring target in my league hall when I noticed the missing damage. I copy/pasted the relevant lines from my combat log below, including the two rotations I did leading up to the missing Time Bomb. Hopefully, Tunso can figure this out for a future hotfix.

1422763446: Mmm Jelly's Charged Blast damaged Sparring Target for 1316
1422763447: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763447: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763447: Mmm Jelly's Solar Flame Mastery damaged Sparring Target for 2886
1422763447: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 699 Power
1422763448: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763448: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763448: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763448: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763449: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763449: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763449: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763449: Mmm Jelly's Warp Barrage critically damaged Sparring Target for 1801
1422763449: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 517 Power
1422763449: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 818 Power
1422763449: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 36 Power
1422763449: Mmm Jelly's Time Shift damaged Sparring Target for 2554
1422763449: affected Sparring Target
1422763449: Mmm Jelly's Warp Barrage damaged Sparring Target for 771
1422763450: Mmm Jelly's Warp Barrage damaged Sparring Target for 848
1422763450: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763450: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763451: Mmm Jelly's Tachyon Blast damaged Sparring Target for 3110
1422763451: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763451: Mmm Jelly's Time Bomb healed Mmm Jelly for 699 Power
1422763451: Mmm Jelly's Time Bomb damaged Sparring Target for 2406
1422763451: Mmm Jelly's Time Bomb damaged Sparring Target for 29497

1422763451: Mmm Jelly's Charged Blast damaged Sparring Target for 1512
1422763452: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763452: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763452: Mmm Jelly's Solar Flame Mastery critically damaged Sparring Target for 7194
1422763452: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 699 Power
1422763453: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763453: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763454: Mmm Jelly's Recovery critically healed Mmm Jelly for 34 Power
1422763454: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763454: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 1012 Power
1422763454: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 352 Power
1422763454: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763454: Mmm Jelly's Warp Barrage damaged Sparring Target for 965
1422763454: Mmm Jelly's Time Shift damaged Sparring Target for 2816
1422763454: Mmm Jelly's Warp Barrage critically damaged Sparring Target for 1696
1422763455: Mmm Jelly's Warp Barrage damaged Sparring Target for 919
1422763455: Mmm Jelly's Recovery critically healed Mmm Jelly for 34 Power
1422763455: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763456: Mmm Jelly's Tachyon Blast damaged Sparring Target for 1651
1422763456: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763456: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 520 Power
1422763456: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 145 Power
1422763456: Mmm Jelly's Time Bomb damaged Sparring Target for 1605
1422763456: Mmm Jelly's Time Bomb damaged Sparring Target for 26130

1422763456: Mmm Jelly's Charged Blast critically damaged Sparring Target for 2952
1422763457: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763457: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763457: Mmm Jelly's Solar Flame Mastery damaged Sparring Target for 3063
1422763457: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 699 Power
1422763458: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763458: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763458: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763458: Mmm Jelly's Anomaly damaged Sparring Target for 1761
1422763459: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763459: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 672 Power
1422763459: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763459: Mmm Jelly's Time Shift critically damaged Sparring Target for 5608
1422763460: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763460: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763460: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763460: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763461: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763461: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 720 Power
1422763461: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 651 Power
1422763461: Mmm Jelly's Tachyon Blast damaged Sparring Target for 2438
1422763461: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763461: Mmm Jelly's Time Bomb damaged Sparring Target for 2785
Missing Time Bomb Damage <-----------------------------------------------------------

1422763462: Mmm Jelly's Charged Blast damaged Sparring Target for 1347
1422763462: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763462: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763462: Mmm Jelly's Solar Flame Mastery critically damaged Sparring Target for 8345
1422763463: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763463: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763463: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763463: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 528 Power
1422763463: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 843 Power
1422763464: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763464: Mmm Jelly's Warp Barrage damaged Sparring Target for 891
1422763464: Mmm Jelly's Time Shift critically damaged Sparring Target for 5255
1422763465: Mmm Jelly's Warp Barrage damaged Sparring Target for 1009
1422763465: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763465: Mmm Jelly's Warp Barrage critically damaged Sparring Target for 2051
1422763465: Mmm Jelly's Recovery healed Mmm Jelly for 27 Power
1422763465: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763466: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 886 Power
1422763466: Sparring Target's Restore healed Mmm Jelly for 512 Power
1422763466: Mmm Jelly's Tachyon Blast damaged Sparring Target for 2811
1422763466: affected Mmm Jelly
1422763466: Mmm Jelly's Time Bomb damaged Sparring Target for 2961
1422763466: Mmm Jelly's Time Bomb damaged Sparring Target for 39023