Test Discussion EP 38 Artifact: Lernaea's Amulet

Discussion in 'Testing Feedback' started by Batuba, Jul 1, 2020.

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  1. AV Loyal Player

    Any word on parser fix?
  2. Batuba Developer

    Yeah parser is working internally, however we have to wait until our next client build which might not happen until release. We are investigating how we can get it in sooner. Sites like DCUO logs does remove the self damage as part of your dps should you like to try using that site for the time being.
    • Like x 2
  3. AV Loyal Player

    Ok tested with DCUO Log Analyser.

    It's overall good but doesn't feel right in terms of DPS. If a player pushes the envelope to the point where it becomes a risk in Elite, they'll still be doing ~1.5-3% less than Transformation Card (and if they push any further they will die a lot in most fights). If a player does their normal rotation, this artifact falls in between Grim and Trans (but is closest to Grim). This leaves it in a very awkward position in that the true value of it appears to be the support component, not the DPS component.

    In the end, both of those approaches leave the arti feeling lackluster considering we're hurting ourselves for DPS gains. The rotation flow while using this feels right but the output needs a minor tweak. Could you swap the raw % mods on this to make it 4% Might and 3% Power and increase the raw Might to 1275? This would mirror Tetra, which is appropriate as they have similar flavours and are stat-buff type artifacts. No stat-focused artifact gives 765 & 3% like this, as that's usually reserved for gimmick artis like trans/strat/scrap etc. 1275 and 4% might help close the gap on this enough but it could definitely use a bit of a DPS boost in some form or another. Also, anecdotally, wearing an artifact that gives derpy % mods we don't care about (power, in this case) in greater proportions than our primary stats outright feels bad.
    • Like x 1
  4. Batuba Developer

    Okay, we got the tech in for the next PC Test build. Should be easier to test once that's in.
    • Like x 1
  5. Batuba Developer

    My personal observations have been different. When I averaged around 5-7 stacks I was seeing a total of a 15% DPS increase. Transformation Card is a flat 13% damage increase.

    Now that we have the new tech coming in, I feel we will get a lot more testing. I am willing to change the hard stats if the testing results prove that the artifact is "lack luster". Keep in mind, new artifacts are not made to be better than all previous artifacts, they are meant to be new alternative ways of playing that should be competitive what what is currently out there (at least that is the goal :p )
  6. AV Loyal Player

    Can you clarify, this? Unless you're sitting at 10 for multiple stacks, it's not possible to average more than 5. Do you mean ending your Offerings at, on average, stack 5-7? Also, are you comparing the same rotation or are you comparing an Amulet-modified rotation to a non-Amulet rotation?

    I did 10 2min parses each with Grim, Trans, and Amulet, terminating Amulet at alternating 5 & 7 stacks with max DPS substitute for finisher for the 7-stack phases and performance was 1-3% behind Trans on average. Not a massive sample size given Trans' variability but it didn't ever outperform it there. I'll continue to test though.

    Agreed, but when the cost is half-killing ourselves every few seconds and bringing us without 1-shot range for an Elite boss, virtually 1:1 performance with existing artis that don't carry that risk is lackluster.
  7. Batuba Developer

    Correct, 5-7 stacks before dropping the stacks (solo). Only times I push to 10 is if I'm going to use a supercharge. This is a rotation with amulet vs a rotation without. Tried multiple builds until I found something that I felt started to work. But I leave the builds to the real professionals which are you lot!

    It will help when people post their findings to also post their builds.
  8. Tsavorentless Dedicated Player

    That totally isn't the fact with the strat n trans. Pretty much they're the meta even without the might version not updated yet with the prec version stronger. Furthemore u should not buff the might n lower the precs version. Thing is Is the cards aren't fun like scrap gem n solar. not to get further away but wuy u we're saying was the increase of the old arts might be a 2% increase but u might die over n over n to me it's def not worth it. Further more any might increased will be compared to this handicapping any newer ones.

    My thoughts in my head I could get rid of 200 strat n trans n I'd be more happy.
  9. Batuba Developer

    Would love to see actual testing of the strategist card within the thread created for it, if the case is shown that the strategist card on it's own is out performing all artifacts, then I'll gladly look at tweaking values down to match. However, you are talking about artifact synergies with other artifacts. I cannot create a new artifact that compares to synergies because the day I bring out another artifact that completely synergizes with this, then it becomes extremely overpowered. This is one of the reasons we bring out new artifacts each DLC, so we can provide new build options or enhance ones that already exist and not necessarily to topple the current meta (which will happen from time to time).

    Anyways, I feel this has side tracked enough. I'd appreciate we keep on topic with actual testing, numbers, builds, etc and not just and anecdotal experiences.
  10. Tsavorentless Dedicated Player

    Np n ty for the response.
  11. AV Loyal Player

    Will test more when I have a healer to help and post results. On paper though, your results should not be possible over a long testing period: ending Offering at 5 and 7 stacks, alternating, means we're averaging 3 stacks overall, ie. averaging 9% Might (based on base might) gain. Therefore, before even factoring in the loss due to the modified rotation it mathematically falls notably behind Trans. That's also before factoring in that Trans benefits our tap queues, which Amulet does not. I don't know how you're seeing a 15% overall DPS increase with an average of 9% overall base Might gain unless I'm missing something about the artifact. The difference I'm seeing is in keeping with what the math suggests we should find.

    Edit: Also, Trans is a % damage boost overall, whereas Amulet is a % Might modifier. This means that Trans' gain correlates 1:1 with DPS increase where Amulet does not, because our base Might to which modifiers apply is lower than total might. 3 Offering stacks = Based Might + 9% but that only correlates to an approximate 6% increase in our total might (assuming the player has the best base might possible). In order to even tie Trans' gains, we would have to average 5+ stacks, which means going to 10 every single time without fail and holding it there whenever possible, which is close to suicide and requires cure bombing.

    Since testing w Trans is all over the place due to the high crit rate, the actual math has to line up.
  12. Batuba Developer

    Consider the base stats on the artifact as well. So if 9% is average might I'm getting from the special, I'm also getting the 3%might from the artifact stats +base amount. So really closer to 13% based on the 9% you mentioned.
  13. AV Loyal Player

    Trans and Amulet have the exact same base artifact stats, which is what makes the mathematical comparison so easy right now. That 3% is also multiplied by our base might and not our total might, like Amulet's modifier, so the actual number of Offering stacks required to match the % DPS gain provided by Trans is higher than simply matching % Might buff to Trans buff, as per above. Unless I've made a very large mistake somewhere, it is mathematically impossible for the overall gains of Amulet to match those of Trans without an average of 6-7 stacks (this is the point where total might has increased by a sufficient % to allow it to compete in a realistic environment), which is suicide in Elite with any good rotation and DPS loss due to the inevitable KO will ultimately make it lose again when trying anyways. Also, the lower a players base might, the worse Amulet gets; these comparisons are best-case scenario for Amulet.
    • Like x 1
  14. AV Loyal Player

    Correction: I'm actually already generally averaging 5+ stacks (ie. routinely terminating at 10 stacks) and Trans still wins on average by ~3%, with a few swings of it winning by ~1% and some with it winning by >6%. Full analysis below.

    Note: Testing with Fire, which is one of the few powers that doesn't lose a lot of DPS by not doing a strict finisher rotation every time (Light is best for that but the large power costs make it impractical for testing this). Fire is also one of the most cost efficient powers in terms of consumption over time. Comparison done with Solar Amp + Amulet + Tetra vs Solar Amp + Trans + Tetra


    Fire's overall, non-Amulet max output ST rotation can be simplified to: Amplified Heat Vision > Absorb Heat > Snuff Out > Repeat

    The max DPS Amulet variant possible, which is 1.5-2.5% less potent than the above in terms of base output, is: Amplified Heat Vision > Absorb Heat > Freezing Breath (2 ticks)(tap cancel)>Amplified Heat Vision > Absorb Heat > Snuff Out > Repeat

    - Spontaneous Combustion can be substituted for 2 ticks of Freezing Breath there, but the DPS losses are greater (>2-3+%).
    - The max DPS Amulet rotation has no clippable power, meaning there is an additional unobserved DPS loss in content in that we can't stack RSK summons, Neo activations, Soder, etc with anything without stopping our rotation, unlike BiS rotation that has an extra slot for an interim power to be used when knocked out of rotation or when clipping.
    - The cooldowns on the Amulet rotation are such that, if we get interrupted, we have nothing to do for several seconds and it will lose more DPS in actual practice than the BiS rotation.

    Amulet vs Trans Testing:

    Note: Heat Vision generates 2-3 Offering stacks per cast, depending on whether the final low-cost tick procs.

    The rotation above consistently generates at least an average of 5 Offering stacks, with the capacity to generate up to 5.6 stacks when all three HV procs occur consistently, ie. HV (1+2+3) + Absorb (4) + FB (5+6) + HV (7+8+9) + Absorb (10) + Snuff (finisher benefits from 10 before reset) / 11 = 5.6. Lowest average possible is 4.9 stacks, if HV never procs all three times, ie. HV (1+2) + Absorb (3) + FB (4+5) + HV (6+7) + Absorb (8) + Snuff (8) / 9 = 4.9. This gives an average >15% of base bonus Might, which results in an approximate 12% increase in total Might when using relative BiS equipment and artifacts.

    12% total Might increase - 2% DPS loss (for using Amulet rotation instead of BiS rotation) = 10% DPS gain, 3% less than what was indicated Trans offers, which pretty much exactly aligns with the results I've been getting. Note: This does not factor other practical crit-able sources of DPS like tac-swapped Orbital Assistance procs, which is non-negligible

    Important Consideration
    - This is in pristine testing conditions with no interruptions. The Amulet rotation is significantly less resilient than the BiS rotation and will do worse in actual content due to unavoidable interrupts & mechanics and the fact clipping secondary effects isn't possible with it, as per above. As such, this Analysis is as much in Amulet's favour as humanly possible, This also does not factor in the DPS loss from dying due to taking a 40-50k Amulet self-burn at the same time a boss does a big AoE.
    - The majority of powers lose more DPS when switching from their BiS rotations to a rotation suitable for Amulet than Fire does. As such, almost every other power will fair worse than this and the ones that don't will almost certainly kill themselves frequently due to their higher power costs and fast clipping.


    At present, Amulet requires us to half-kill ourselves every few seconds, use an inferior and less resilient rotation, and still doesn't tie BiS ST artis, with most powers doing worse than what's seen here. As this is advertised as risk vs reward, this deserves a buff. Also, it's not enough for this to simply tie Trans... when one artifact allows us to use our strongest rotations, is super resilient, and requires no additional effort or modification and the other requires a specific, less-resilient rotation, dramatically increases our chances of getting KO'd, and places an additional burden on the entire team, the latter should obviously be hitting harder than the former here. When one artifact is borderline suicide, it cannot be allowed to be worse or even as potent as artifacts that don't kill us or lower our DPS in other ways. Even if two artifacts do the same amount of damage but one murders us continuously, they are not on par.


    1. As previously discussed, can try increasing the base stats on the artifact to compensate. I think my earlier recommendation of 1275 and 4% was a lowball tbh, I just felt it was a decent starting point to see how it played out in testing. I think in reality it would need the max bonus of 1785 and 5%, especially for the other powers that don't fair as well.

    2. Can consider changing the wording/logic regarding how the artifact boosts Might. Instead of "increasing your Might by 3% per stack," it could be changed to either a. "increasing your Might by 3% of your Might per stack" or b. "grants you 3% Might per stack." The latter two incorporate the language and logic used by Tetra, and would work as follows:

    a. The "by 3% of your Might" language results in the % gains being directly based off of our total Might instead of our base Might. I kinda get the impression this may have been the intent but not certain.

    b. This is a variation on "grant" vs "increase" language that hybridizes Tetra's method with traditional methods. The % gains in this case would still be based off of our base might, but they would be raw gains, ie. they would be subject to further % modifiers just like the Might gained from Tetra is.
    • Like x 2
  15. Batuba Developer

    This is helpful feedback. Thanks!
    • Like x 1
  16. FoolsFire Devoted Player

    Would a Affinity Generator Mods help the Amulet at all? And if so, by how much?

    C - Healing Conservation - Once installed in your Generator and while wearing 6 pieces of Elite gear, using a Priority Heal will reduce the power cost of the next super power you use within 15 seconds.

    D - Soul Link - Once installed in your Generator and while wearing 8 pieces of Elite gear, transfer 2% of your incoming damage to your pet. (And is the Grimourum Artifact considered a Pet?)

    D - Crippling Stance - Once installed in your Generator and while wearing 8 pieces of Elite gear, each time you are hit you have a 10% chance to stun a nearby enemy. This effect may only occur every 6 seconds. (So if you're hit by the Amulets damage your enemy may be stunned?)
  17. Tsavorentless Dedicated Player

    You'd think there'd actually be a gd mod for full elite but there isn't which makes no sense. Def see where ur going. Wish they did n besides thaty my only want is the ultimate soda. I mean really 1% ain't breaking the Game stacking with omegas n they'd make money off it lol.
  18. StealthBlue Loyal Player

    I don't think this would work with Healing Conversion, since your finisher isn't tagged as a Priority Heal.

    This might work with Soul Link. I believe Grimorium is considered a pet for the Source Shard artifact. At the very least Batuba, suggested Grimorium a recommended pairing with Source Shard. I'm not sure how much health Grimorium has or how fast it comes back up if it gets KO'd, so you might end up with a net loss in damage if you use this artifact with Soul Link.

    This should work with Crippling Stance, unless something has changed. In early testing of this artifact, Ice's reflect (and other similar shields) would reflect some of the damage done from using a power to nearby ads.
  19. L T Devoted Player

    Most hard core precision users have given up on VWD.

    Back to the topic at hand, played around with this artifact for an hour or so this weekend. It's great fun....but I'm not sure it's buff is quite worth the danger. Also, some power sets are more suited to it than others.
    • Like x 1
  20. Control Creed Well-Known Player

    Hate healing already, after this? I'm done. Not even trying anymore... this is going to be the worst thing to happen to healers in the games history and an artifact where you have to heal 9 to 12 times to get a unimpressive heal over time is not going to help. At least I won't waste time or XP on these artifacts.
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