Counter Immunity Removal

This is going to hurt as a Celestial player >.<

Should've got rid of AM and WM first...

With counter immunity removals, there will be even more cheese going on.

Screen-blockers can continue to screen-block and turtle-block without the risk of giving away counter immunity. Block-breaker spammers hiding in the background or flying directly above and spamming BBs (cheesiest tactic as they are directly above you forcing you to have to turn your camera angle to interrupt them) can continue to spam BBs without the risk of giving away counter immunity.

In the end, this is more likely a resource-driven decision since the dev team is now on a monthly schedule to release episodes versus a quarterly schedule to release DLCs.

Hoping that the counter immunity removals will help with server lag/latency. If that is the case, and the real reason behind it, then yeah. Ok, don't like it but definitely preferable to the occasional server lag/latency. And with a more stable environment, cross-play can occur, if indeed it is already being worked on behind-the-scenes.

Once Counter Immunities are gone, the issue will still be Counter Windows and Multi-Target Attacks.

Player A is surrounded by Enemy 1 (Blocking), Enemy 2 (Lunging), Enemy 3 (Blockbreaking) in close proximity.
If Player A uses a Multi-Target attack (AoE/Cone) against Enemy 2 or 3, will Player A be countered by Enemy 1's blocks?
If Player A blocks? How long does the counter window last before Enemy 3's BB counters Player A?
If Player A BBs Enemy 1's Block? How long does Player A have until Enemy 2's Lunge counters?

I would guess, since I'm not a good player, is use a Single-Target Combo/Lunge at Enemy 3, hope it isn't affected by Enemy 1's block. Player A quickly blocks Enemy 2's lunge. Then BBs Enemy 1's block.

Or just escape the situation. Easier said than done in this unlikely simplistic scenario.

The likelier scenario is Enemies 1-2-3 are attempting their fastest and least risky WM Combos and AM rotations. Player A might be able to counter one enemy, but will take the full brunt of the two other enemy attacks. Certainly, some Enemies might try feints or stuns to open Player A to counters, but the simplest most effective method is just overpowering through brute force thanks to the current Combat Mechanics.

If new players can't figure out Counter Immunities, which is basically just Countering successfully (which will still be in the game) and capitalizing on it, then they'll never figure out the finer points of PvP. It isn't only about completing Combos and Rotations like most DPS players in PvE, it's understanding your opponents' patterns to set up and time your attacks and defense. Something that new players will never learn at the rate PvP is going.

No, what you do is interpreting those numbers. That's basically the mistake political magazines make in order to "build" (as in manipulate) an opinion. The toons I looked for are a number of toons, not players, which means it is the max amount of players in endgame, not the actual amount, as I know of at least one account with two of those CR115+/SP150+ toons sitting on it (reducing the actual max number of players there by 1). The idea of some players having 2 toons among those is completely non-existent in your post while you use the same approach to get the opposing numbers down. Fact 1: there's over 23 million toons in DCUO and I never claimed it was players; fact 2: just about 20k currently are at the range of what the community thinks is fit for endgame. That's the numbers, and they are only "off" if Sore's app was giving completely outdated numbers - of which I'm pretty sure it's not the case.

Yes, sure Can we now discuss again who is off here with numbers ? You're basically saying that DCUO has those 20k "average" players, the handful at highest CR included (the query is not CR115, but CR115+, remember) and way less than that in noobs (because "average") and that in all 4 servers combined? Daybreak would have pulled the plug if it was that way LMAO!

(of course, you can be that spoiled in your perception that noobs aren't even players for you because the game for you is just the relevant content your main is at....)

Not sure what your want to say here - the way I understand it it's counterproductive to your cause. I also don't get the time factor out of "content". Content is "done" when you got the feats linked to it, and in that case Origin Crisis didn't stand 9 month to me or a minority of players.

Ah, no. My standard was exactly about how much of those dollars the person is willing to spend on the game. And according to PvP the money factor tells us: the PvP "episode" is the cheapest on the market since Daybreak split the DLCs into episodes and powers/weapons/equipments/feature unlocks. Basically the company tells us: this part of the game was not selling well.

Basically, I could close the case with you saying that. Because that way you admit that the number of content that cannot be outgeared at some point of time is always smaller then the content that can be outgeared

You do know that there was a time when those games were called "MMORPG", right? With scratching the "RPG" from the genre name - which happened about 8-10 years ago - the providers behind those games are free to scratch the RPG factor from MMOs completely, yet they didn't. You seem to have the same mindset, toggling MMO and RPG in your argumentation. Because SOE and later Daybreak came up with a game rooted in RPG environment, DCUO was about what you expected and you became a customer. So why is it so hard for you to understand that other customers expect an MMO to be time and money intensive, but do not expect the user to improve himself? You do know that selling is about meeting customers' expectations, don't you? And Daybreak expects this:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-days-of-the-wow-style-mmo-are-over-h1z1-boss-s/1100-6426943/

Because bottom line people/players are no longer willing to "work" in an MMO. Move it all the way you want, but the "elitists" in DCUO and WoW etc are dinosaurs on their way to extinction, especially when companies stop providing them with content.

Can you guys remove Wm and Am now since your trying to restore early pvp, I always thought immunities was a strategic way to truimph powers that had the advantage, why remove it?

After reading most of the posts here, I think both sides very good arguments about the pro's and con's of the counter immunity mechanic, and to me it seems that removing it will be less beneficial than keeping it. However I'm of the opinion that counter mechanics are a bit too strong because if you counter someone you're rewarded extra damage for countering plus the counter immunity. The problem here is that in a group fight a good player will "farm" (im trying to use it as loosely as possible here because I dont like the term "farm") these immunities and thus frustrate new players, so its quite obvious that this mechanic widens the gap between good and bad players. While it is rewarding for the good player, its very punishing for the new one, and if you want to have more new blood in PvP the new players have to feel less punished. I think this is important because as much as the rewarding feeling is important to the veteran player, you also have to take into account how punishing it feels for the new player. Yes some of you guys have been playing for a long time and you had to learn to PvP over a long time, but you were doing it together and pushing the skill level bit by bit. Now the skill level between veteran and new players is too big, and the new players have to have a chance to catch up quicker to your level, otherwise the new ones will feel that they stand no chance against the good players and conclude that PvP isn't worth doing.

So I think a solution would be to keep the counter immunity, but lower its effectiveness to something like: once you get a counter immunity you cant get another one in the next 5 seconds. I took 5 seconds just to illustrate my point, it can be any number of seconds that the majority will agree upon. IMO this would be a much better solution that to remove it completely.

So wait wait wait, You not beeing able to 1v1 without beeing countered by your oppenets partner in a TEAM match is cheese? OK.....
So You'd like to mindlesly spam combos without any risk posed to you by your oppenents teammate?
You do realise if you get blocked, by that other dude you were hitting him right?
Are You the type of person who goes "SCRIMM ME 1V1 KID" after a lost match?
Introducing a random counter chain reaction into a match benefits teamplay how exactly?
After this change playing rock paper scissors on the versus channel will be a more accurate and less random solution to determine the match winner.

Quickly change your target and blockbreak the guy who is blocking near you to counter his move of trying to countering you. PvP at that lvl is a game of mind and fast reactions and not stinkiest cheese. Its very possible for ones who not mindlessly spam weapon and power combos to do it. U constantly need to be aware of your surroundings and have a good control over your character so that you dont end up being too late in countering cause u got stuck in animations while attacking.
And then the interesting thing happens: u get short immunity from countering so now u will have a bit higher chances to actually pull of a 1v2 situation, isnt that good? that u are rewarded for being able to deal with 2 opponents on your back.

I'm beginning to think that counters are not a fundamental part of combat with all this talk about how only immunity makes countering worthwhile.

Counters are for me the most fundamental thing in pvp and immunity makes situations like 1v2 possible to deal with.

They are, but immunities are the thing that brings order and a ruleset into them. Removing immunities removes order and introduces chaos- people getting punished for performing correct counters on their opponents, which as an end product shifts the meta towards safe damage, and away from counters.
Think about it you're fighting 2 people You see one blocking so you bb them, in the same moment you get lunged by the teammate and land on your ***, all the benefit of you using the countersystem aka the backbone of combat is gone in that moment, you would have been far better off attempting to just spam them to death with damage..
Dunno about you but that's pretty bull.. Randomness automatically excludes skill.

Legends
Player A goes into pvp and cannot figure out or manage counter immunity and gets facerolled in a Batcave 1v1 and rage quits, abandoning pvp altogether and sticking to pve. Player A then finds out in the game update that counter immunity has been removed, and decides to re-enter pvp and meets the exact same opponent.

Player A gets facerolled. Again.

Player A then abandons DCUO.

As for arenas, its going to be even harder to survive without counter immunity with the big hits that AMs and WMs have.

At the coding level, its probably going to be hard to turn off AMs and WMs in a pvp environment, and makes no sense anyway since everyone is now doing either an AM rotation or a WM rotation. Probably gonna be easier to just reduce the damage numbers in a pvp environment. Just thinking off the top of my head here.

It's not gone, I just BB'd my target. Am I open to a lunge? Sure but throwing a BB does not equate to me getting lunged, that's the silliest part of this debate so far, "i can't take a risk because it will potentially cost me". With immunity, the risks are virtually non existent assuming you're one of those counter gurus who can catch 80% or more on reaction alone.

It's never, "CC your target so you can turn and land that counter on the other player to limit the chance of interruption".

What I truly do not understand is why Immunity out of all things was taken out.
There has been a lot of other mechanics piled on top of immunity.

It's like playing Jenga with a person that has never played or heard of it before. Any sane person would think "Let me take out the top piece, it has no risk to me and if I am wrong I can easily put it back" but the Devs decided "Let me take out the most bottom piece! That will fix everything! I hope nothing falls!"

Our point of divergence is that I believe it shouldn't be possible to sustain yourself for any measurable amount of time when the group effort, you know the one that permeates throughout anything that isn't a solo, has failed.

Regarding focus fire, try kiting or use a shield, maybe just bail entirely. Maybe, the weirdest idea of all, you fight back.

This is beyond the point of impossible.
Even theoretically. You are telling me you can see a person block [350ms counter window opened up] factor in a ping of 30ms and a bit of server lag of 20ms. That's 300ms to go. You can stun someone who is around you switch targets and still BB the target all under .3 seconds? With that kind of reaction time you should be topping every FNL in this game.
Why is there even a risk for doing what you are supposed to do successfully? That is like a Tank shielding up and dodging a one shot but still getting hit by a one shot because "There was no risk involved for you!"
This argument is beyond silly too. There is always risks with counters. The risk increases more and more the higher level you play at. The scrims we end up doing against the HB ends up with none of the counters going unnoticed no matter how safe you think you are. You always have to weary of what is going around you. If the enemy is baiting you to block, you just opened yourself to a counter with a heavy risk. If the enemy rolls you just put yourself at risk. If the enemy got immunity before you, you just put yourself at risk.
Farming immunity is risky it's not "Hur hur let me lunge around randomly and get free immunity".

Trying to get immunity in a 2v1 is fighting back.

It's gone You countered your target but you cant punish him, instead you're the one getting punished for performing the counter. And yes if you're fighting even semi decent opponents you'll be lunged, basing a system on a premise of "but a nab wouldnt lunge you" makes for poor design. CCs can be resisted by blocking broken out off, there's a butload of immunities, and are not a valid panaceum on the chaoes that will be released without the immunities there. Also even if the target was vulnerable to ccs, the kind of reaction speed you'd need is on a kung fu master level loll.

While I appreciate the colorful responses, they don't hold any weight IMO.

We'll just need to agree to disagree. K?

Yours don't either. Your entire argument us under the false premise that counters should not be the centrefold of DCUO combat.

Fixed that for you.