Core Strength vs. Penetrating Strikes (with pictures)

This is good and all but it has just one problem: it's not in the Oracle's Database.

I mean why was it moved here? This is clearly a guide.

It was in pvp section at first.

I have no idea. I pm'd a mod yesterday but it's still here. It has nothing to do with powers, weapons, or movement lol

Check out this https://forums.station.sony.com/dcuo/index.php?threads/sores-nature-guide.74/page-30#post-1943158
for Tunso talking about defense/toughness for players and NPCs. They multiply defense/toughness by .0142 to get damage reduction so it's not exactly 71 defense.

What about the defense cap? The trends will be the same past the 3k defense/4k toughness I show. In case you're fighting an ice tank that managed to get to the cap, you still know what chest mod is better.

Yes PS ignores armor and armor mitigates all sources of damage.

And I think I did explicitly state that PS is better for damage roles in PvE. Just see the graphs. Past the minimum mob defense PS is always better.

I love seeing my field reporting being put to such amazing use.

Nice work!

Just wondering how long it took to test everything?

Very nice and Thanks for the info!


IA ARMY

The upside of it being here instead of in Oracle is that more people get to see it.
Excellent job, I've already swapped the mods on my two main toons and am seeing increases in damage even with the naked eye!

Deathmike out.

As long as we're talking mathy, something about that thread you linked has always bothered me.

“You can feel free to share anything below publicly:

-Controller Damage Debuff: This is -7%. However keep in mind that everything is additive. So Damage Role character buffed to 150% would go down to 143%. A healer without Core Strength would go from 75% to 72%. Obviously this debuff is way worse for the Healer. NPCs occasionally have slight damage increases or decreases either all the time or during certain phases but they work in the same additive manner.”

If the debuff is additive, wouldn't the Healer without Core Strength in the example go down to 68% instead of 72%?

The first example seems additive, but the second is multiplicative. It makes my eyes go crosswise.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I have no idea where he got 72%. It would be closer to 70% if he was multiplying ...

He might have just typed the wrong keys. Typos happen to us all.

That's an answer I can handle.

But if there's an actual mathy answer ... I'm stymied.

No the trend does not continue as defense goes up. 7100 defense is not 100% dmg reduction. I am not well versed on the subject of the defense cap, but in practice we know that a tank with 12000 def is still taking dmg. If the amount of defense is greater than 528 above the cap, then removal of the 528 will still reduce dmg by the capped amount. In that situation PS does absolutely nothing.

that said, do bosses' defense get that high? if yes, wouldnt CS be better.

also are you sure that the CS 10% applies to the modifier and not dmg? Why would it be different for dps compared to every other role?

In limited testing, if you dont cast any spells you shouldnt get a modifier, yet the dmg done is about 10% higher with CS. Has this been addressed?

Yup I think that was a typo or he was thinking of something else. I tested the damage debuff on healers and confirmed the 68% just to make sure I wasn't going crazy.

Oh that's what you mean. If an ice tank really gets up there past the toughness cap then yeah.. it makes sense PS would be less effective or completely useless with >774 toughness above the cap. I don't see the point in finding out how much toughness past the cap there has to be before core strength is better though. No one's really going to build specifically for taking out ice tanks with tank gear who can stay above the cap. In PvE I haven't seen any mob come close to the defense cap. Paradox and Nexus mobs and bosses all have 15% armor so you don't have to worry about that.

Test Core Strength in damage role with a modifier and see how much it gives. It won't be 10%. It's not different for damage only. Controllers get 10% added onto 0% which is why it's always going to be 10% for them. So yes, if a damage role has no modifier Core Strength will actually give a 10% damage boost. But damage roles are always going to have modifiers so there's no point in considering the 0% modifier case.

So odd, my cousin and I were just getting ready to figure out which one would give him more damage. Great work Mr Mackeral, thank you very much!

The question was is your premise correct that the 10% is added onto a multiplier instead of just being its own multiplier. For example, if it is its own modifier you'd do an extra 10% with no modifier, but an extra 13.5% with a 35%, 14.5% for 45, 15% for 50% and 16% for 60%. I originally chose core strength under the assumption that it was calculated separately as its own modifier. Sorry if my wording is poor.

I actually did test when I first read this I was attacking the sparring target and noticed that CS was doing more damage, but I wasn't using powers so I had no modifiers. I then used the same power over and over and was PS was doing slightly more damage.

Thank you for this in-depth analysis. So much good info here to clear up some major confusion I had about the two mods. I gues I'm sending my DPSes back to their bases post hast.

Yup. That was the first thing I said. All buffs and debuffs to damage are added up to the same multiplier.

Hello, I would like to know how true is this.

How did you guys figure out that the 10% is added to the modifier, and not added to the final count?

What I understand from shiny is that the raw damage, says 500 damage gets a 10% from Core Strength when no damage modifier. If there is a damage modifier in play, then it would be 500+60%+10% = 500 + 70% = 850, not like 500 + 300 + 10% = 800 + 10% = 880.

But is it really like this? Can I get some comfirmation from Mepps or a Dev?

Sorry for just stating it, but you test it to figure it out. You can hit a spar target without it and then with it and see that it's not an independent 10% boost. I could post my own tests, but I thought the tunso pm I linked repeatedly about how damage bonuses work would be enough : p

"Penetrating Strikes ignores 528 defense or 7.5% armor in PvE"
"All mobs have a minimum of 15% armor or 1056 defense."
"The Trigon DLC mobs I tested have 2600 defense or about 37% armor"

7.5%, 15% and 37% of what?
528, 1056 and 2600 are respectively 7.5%, 15% and 37% of 7040
But what 7040 represent?
PS is a static variable and not %.
So the more enemy's defense is high, the less penetration % is obtained
That's why i don't understand why the curve increase and not decrease?