Core Strength vs. Penetrating Strikes (with pictures)

GU47 update: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/dc...ikes-with-pictures.176413/page-8#post-3261184

All analyses of Core Strength and Penetrating Strikes I've seen have either been wrong or done without knowing that Core Strength adds its 10% bonus to your damage modifier, not your damage.

What I mean is that rather than multiplying your damage by 110%, it turns your 35% damage modifier into 45%, 50% to 60%, etc. So your actual damage increase with Core Strength varies depending on whatever modifier you have at the time.

Another mistake I've seen - a 10% armor reduction does not mean a 10% increase in damage. I already wrote some of this stuff in the gadgets guide but here I have pretty graphics to help show what I mean. All of my examples assume you're level 30 fighting level 30 mobs or players.

Damage Role

Recommendation: Penetrating Strikes for Damage role in PvE and PvP.

As I said, Core Strength adds 10% to your current modifier. So your damage increase with a 35% modifier on you would be 145%/135% = +7.4%. As your damage modifier increases, Core Strength is less and less effective. With a 50% modifier, the damage increase would be 160%/150% = +6.7%. As 35% is the minimum modifier you can have, we'll take +7.4% as the max damage increase for Core Strength.

Penetrating Strikes ignores 528 defense or 7.5% armor in PvE. The actual damage increase depends on the defense of the mob, but Penetrating Strikes gets better as defense goes up so all we have to do is look at the base mob defense. All mobs have a minimum of 15% armor or 1056 defense. Penetrating Strikes ignores half of this, turning 15% damage reduction into 7.5% damage reduction. Then the damage increase would be (100% - 7.5%) / (100% - 15%) = +8.8%. And it only gets better from here. The Trigon DLC mobs I tested have 2600 defense or about 37% armor, so the damage increase on these mobs would be 70.5%/63% = +12%.

Core Strength gives a maximum damage increase of +7.4% while Penetrating Strikes gives a minimum damage increase of +8.8%, so Penetrating Strikes is better for damage roles in PvE.

In PvP, Penetrating Strikes ignores 774 toughness or 11% armor. We'll just use the T0/T1 CR77 cash gear for the minimum toughness here. It gives about 1320 toughness or 18.8% armor. Then the damage increase ignoring 11% armor would be +13.5%.

Other Roles

Recommendation: Core Strength for Healer and Tank roles in PvE and PvP. Penetrating Strikes for Controller role in PvP, either mod depending on the situation for PvE.

The other roles don't have damage modifiers on their powers so it's simpler here. Controllers get an actual +10% damage increase and Heals/Tank get their damage penalty removed. Healers get a 100%/75% = +33% damage increase while Tanks get a 100%/80% = +25% damage increase.

So Healers should always stick with Core Strength and Tanks should go with Core Strength (unless they're spec'd to specifically fight 4k+ toughness buffed ice tanks).

Controllers should use Penetrating Strikes in PvP but for PvE, it depends on the situation since Penetrating Strikes overtakes Core Strength at around 1762 defense. I said earlier that Trigon DLC mobs have 2600 defense so PS will be better there. But Paradox/Nexus mobs and bosses have the base 15% armor so Core Strength will be better there. If you don't know the defense of the NPCs you're fighting, just go with Core Strength as it won't matter much anyways for a controller.

Damage Role (with Defense Debuff)

Recommendation: Penetrating Strikes for Damage role in PvE.

The controller defense debuff will change things slightly, but not too much. It subtracts 493 defense or 7% armor from NPCs. This is also additive so together with Penetrating Strikes, mobs with base defense will be left at 15% - 7.5% - 7% = 0.5% armor. Penetrating Strikes + defense debuff will then give a minimum of 99.5%/85% = +17% damage increase.

With a 35% damage modifier, Core Strength with the defense debuff will give a (145%/135%) * (92%/85%) = +16.3% damage increase. With a 50% damage modifier, it would be a (160%/150%) * (92%/85%) = +15.5% damage increase.

The gap is closer but Penetrating Strikes still wins. The defense debuff gets better with higher mob defense like PS, but Core Strength with a 35% modifier will never catch up to Penetrating Strikes.

Other Roles (with Defense Debuff)

Recommendation: Core Strength for Healer and Tank roles in PvE. Core Strength for Controller role in PvE (but may still depend on the situation).

With Core Strength and a defense debuff on a mob with base defense, Controllers will get a (110%/100%) * (92%/85%) = +19% damage increase. Healers will get a (100%/75%) * (92%/85%) = +44% damage increase. Tanks will get a (100%/80%) * (92%/85%) = +35% damage increase.
Penetrating Strikes will be the same as above, giving a +17% damage increase.

Healers and Tanks should prefer Core Strength still in PvE. Controllers still start off with Core Strength being better but the point where Penetrating Strikes overtakes Core Strength is further down at about 2225 defense. So I still recommend Core Strength just for convenience since mobs don't get too much more defense than this.

Damage Role (with Toughness Debuff)

Recommendation: Penetrating Strikes for Damage role in PvP.

The controller toughness debuff subtracts 704 toughness or 10% armor from other players. Together with Penetrating Strikes, all of the toughness from the PvP cash gear is ignored. Then Penetrating Strikes + toughness debuff will give a +23% damage increase on the 1320 toughness cash gear.

With a 35% damage modifier, Core Strength with the toughness debuff will give a +20.6% damage increase. With a 50% damage modifier, it would be a +19.8% damage increase.

Again, Core Strength won't catch up so Penetrating Strikes is better in PvP with the controller toughness debuff.

Other Roles (with Toughness Debuff)

Recommendation: Core Strength for Healer and Tank roles in PvP. Penetrating Strikes for Controller role in PvP.

With Core Strength and a toughness debuff on players with cash PvP gear, Controllers will get a = +23.5% damage increase. Healers will get a +50% damage increase. Tanks will get a +40% damage increase.

Penetrating Strikes will be the same as above, giving a +23% damage increase.

Healers and Tanks should go with Core Strength still in PvP when teaming with controllers. Controllers start off at about the same place with both mods but Penetrating Strikes improves faster and will be better.





Thanks to this post https://forums.daybreakgames.com/dcuo/index.php?threads/sores-nature-guide.74/page-30#post-1943158 for info about the controller debuff.

Nice presentation and research, will keep my troll core strength, and change my DPS back to penetrating strikes.

Excellent presentation and argument. Well done! I'm watching this thread for future reference next time the argument comes up!

Interesting results.

Great work, I've made some calcs in the past and my first impressions were than penetrating strikes was slightly better, but with this thread I understand it much better now. Thanks for the effort.

Thanks for sharing!

Thats Interesting and usefull thanks.

Here's my 2 cents and what I thought, that Penetrating Strikes applied to weapon or white damage. I think the tool tip speaks to weapon attacks.

Great and useful post and great job with testing.

Tooltip reads:

Penetrating Strikes - Your attacks ignore 528 Defense and 774 Toughness.

Doesn't quite specify between Precision and Might.

Great job shiny, appreciate your time and effort!!

Thanks for the effort! Core Strength always seemed like a no brainer in healer stance, but I was always on the fence about DPS stance. Will definitely switch it out!

Thanks for the information, great post.

Solid - Thanks for renewing my faith in Penetrating Strikes!!

Shiny holds the theory-crafting crown ATM!

thanks for all the hard work!

--just curious, how the heck did we miss for the last year that the 10% from CS was added to modifiers for dps and not base damage?
is this something you found through testing or have we just been reading it wrong for all this time?
this is the first time ive heard anyone bring it up.

thanks again!

Yeah when I tested it I thought it was odd I didn't get a full 10% sometimes. The difference is so small though nobody could've noticed. And then Tunso suggests here https://forums.station.sony.com/dcuo/index.php?threads/sores-nature-guide.74/page-30#post-1943158 they do damage buffs and debuffs additively so that tipped me off

shiny, you are way, way too smart for all of us.

I'm definitely sharing this info with my league mates. Great job!

Thanks man!!! I will be switching now!!! Liked, and thanks!

most impressive. great info, great presentation

Ive checked the math and I concur with the findings. For completeness I am stating a couple assumptions and some questions.
-the assumption is that 71defense = 1% reduction, based on the info given under that stat. Is this calc also for mobs? Please direct me to some form of literature/testing.
-the defense cap, Is that taken into account in this analysis?
-someone mentioned that penetrating strikes may only apply to weapons/precision attacks. while the description doesnt say, DCUO is not known for transparency. Has this might vs prec dmg been tested?
-Clearly youve thought this out and reading this I get the impression that PS is STRICTLY better that CS for DPS in PvE (my area of concern). It however is not explicitly stated. Would you agree that PS is always better than CS in DPS PvE?

Solid work all around.