W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

Perhaps I am misunderstanding Spytle, but the way I read the description of dovetailing is that the delay is added *after* the jump occurs, so it's not tacked onto the animation being cancelled, but rather is a "speed bump" delay that occurs after the jump animation, preventing another power animation from occurring during that interval.

Spytle, can you clear this up? Is the dovetail being added to actual jumping animation or the animation being cancelled?

god what i wouldnt give for a time machine so i can go back to when this was a skill based game where the only cape was how fast you could go and how creative you could be with ur rotation.

Now i have some questions with dove tails keeping you from doing a power or a tap after whats the point in the jc powers the damg to low on them to be a gain in dps, will they be buffed? By the way all powers have a move that can jump clip with and if done right will icrease your dps. Not sure y poeple think only 3 powers can.

Will gagdets hl and rage be balanced to make up for loose of jc as with out gagdets and hl have the wrost range options. Rage to lesser exstent its issue is 98% of the time you will just be doing db of zero damg buff and that sounds boring as hell. gagdets and hl suffer the same issue they need the burst of back to back powers because there damg values are amoung the lowest of the set and there dots are ether very small ( hl ) or spilt after two, mid range and few options (gadgets).

As for the signalling that kind of mute most dont jump clip in pvp due to very very little power ( cant kill with no power and no ones busrting poeple down with one rotation in pvp gear) in pve who cares about signalling the adds sure dont and legends you could just change the powers on the few that can do. Seem like a fix alot less poeple would care about.

As for the poeple saying to remove it becuase they dont like it or say they cant hanf with poeple doing it. Two thing i hate the color red in clothing i wear but i dont go to stores web sites are cry for them to remove the color red becuase thats dump why care what other poeple like that just silly. No ones ever got on here and said remove all the none clippers becuase i dont like it. Second your getting weapon master it will be just as strong using tons less power making you the preferd dps to pick. You hit the jack pot of opness crazy damg little power used just like using dw or 1h hand pre nerf.

End rant/questions thanks.

From my understanding you are still able to jump, but there is a brief delay between when you are able to use the next power. So we are discussing how long of a delay. Right now in game its 0.0 but we are negotiating what would be the right amout of time of delay or the dovetail correct?

The dove tail if i get what they are saying will be like lets say you do wc clipped with feargas but you wont be able to tap range gg or right into gg right after. This would make the jc clip move near useless as there dots or burst are very weak by them self and would slow you down to a crawl. Doing lets say ram whip thrash fan would be worse than doing ram trarsh grasping hand cliped with whatever. As not only will ram suffer the animation add on but you wont get the tap range or clip back into ram so its near useless to use fan for the sub par burst it does.

I can see your point on this, I have also been wondering about that too. As celestial, retribution combo wither, wither is considered a weapon finisher. As such you can continue straight back into retribution, essentially stacking offensive superpowers back to back with no interruption. That said, CELESTIAL out of these powers, DOES have a required animation between the superpower and the combo. Retribution(watch animation) COMBO(animation), WITHER(clip)... so it in itself balances it out. I've also seen celestial get TRASHED because of this in a raid when power is excellent and there is a JC user with a faster power. Celestial excels in a situation where power is good but not at its best, essentially the ground where other more hungry powers will suffer. That said, it is CAPPED because of this comparatively. Because of the limitations of waiting for the animations, if you are in a raid with perfect power and an expert at JC it CANNOT beat them. Also, this is actually the problem with jump clipping in general, it can put a power that normally would be balanced out of reach of another power that is even considered OP no matter how equal the stats and skills are. That said, I do NOT believe that celestials combos should be considered as an offensive superpower as they are acting according the clipping rules, and have an extra animation just to make up for that. Addressing rage: if you do not have plasma burn you are not doing damage enough to compete, and retch is your best means of getting the plasma burn before throwing some combos out. Retch relies on JC so the nerf will hit them as well and put them on an even playing field. Also, with CD changes to outrage, and dreadful blast being a 3 part combo(the last hit being the only one that truly matters) it once again addresses the issues you are concerned with. HL is the only one I cannot speak for, as I have never used it above t5, nor have I used it since truly learning how to play the game, etc. All of that said, I am sure the DEVs have already looked into this, and actually created those powers (at least rage and celestial) to exist as they are mechanically with clipping. There is no need to change rage or cel's super power combos into offensive power category to prevent clipping.

Why cant you just put all powers into cool down when someone jumps. If your using it for what it's intended, escaping damage, what does it matter if you get a cool down for .5 or whatever is decided. Seems that would be easier than making animations play out.

How about making all abilities which can be JCd have their damage/effect applied after a small amount of time and not within the first 0.3 seconds for example instead of the dovetail?

Take Lex in legends for example, Laser beam doesn't do any damage nor does it apply a DoT until a short time after the ability is cast. The only problem with Lex's example is that if you clip it straight away, it may not do any damage or have any effect however it doesn't cost power either. If you made all JC abilities cost power even if JCd before the damage/effect is applied, it would allow people to clip their weapon attacks to increase DPS but it would make people have to weigh the cost/benefits of losing out on the damage/effect itself.

This may have some crossover with PvE and PvP. For example, PvE players may want the effect whether it is applying a PI or DoT. People in PvP however will want to increase their DPS as they want to improve the amount of burst they can do before someone recovers from a counter.

You also wouldn't have to worry about multiple abilities being hidden, because if someone was to JC a move & use one right after you'd effectively be wasting power. This is because you'd be doing the same thing as just clipping the weapon attack with the last used power and you lose the DPS increase + make it far more power inefficient.

Greetings,

As a Hard-Light I'm very afraid of this WIP!!!

If the problem is balance, the easier way is change de damage level of every powerset and made them equal.

For example: the Celestial's Plague deals the same damage as HL's Lightblast or vice-versa. In that case, the player only have to worry with the reach and form of the power, but the damage will be the same.

Jump cancel is useless to a Celestial (example), but essential to a HL. Most HL's attacks are weak, but very fast, and the jump cancelling is essential to keep this powerset on the same level (or almost) of Nature, Celestial and Rage.

If you change the jump cancel system without increasing the HL's damage it will ruin the Damage role of the powerset.

Conclusion: if you change the jump cancel mechanic, buff the some powersets like HardLight.

Thank you.

I don't want the Devs to back down on this. As a tactic for DPS, Jump Cancelling needs the nuts cut off of it. I agree with everything that Spytle said about Jump Cancelling being too good, unintentionally abused and exploited, and needing to be brought back down to what it was intended to do, act as an escape tactic for long animation powers when attacked.

I think the dovetailing needs to be harshly applied and without any remorse on the Devs' part. People who relied on JC tactics will just have to learn to adapt and change their thinking, and get used to a different level of damage-dealing potential.

From Spytle's prior description, it's the latter (e.g., animation of Fan being put away). I had thought it was the former, until he clarified.

I can't agree with this enough!

Again. With celestial at least it is not a cheat to the system. Damage due to the might portion of attacks is next to nothing first off. Second, celestial has cast times for every combo and requires timing, the same timing that is essentially going into JC changes. You cast retribution combo wither. You cannot RcW in 0.0 seconds or even 0.5 seconds. You use retribution, wait for the timing of the combo tap melee, wait for the timing of the "charge" tap range, then wither hits. Yes at this point you can clip straight back into retribution, but you have already spent about 1.5-2 seconds for the entire cast/animation of the attack. Celestial combos must be considered as one entire power for the most part. You do not go into any raid spamming retribution without comboing to wither, nor do you cast plague without comboing into divine light. Plague > divine light is even longer. Plague, wait, charge, wait, charge, DL, clip. Celestial essentially was built correctly AS IS to be perfectly in line with the new changes. It is a hard hitter, but already one of the SLOWEST powersets because of the combo system and lack of any reason besides maybe Defile to use a JC anyways.

Then don't use it.

"Play your way."

As for the comments in this thread about not being able to clip combo/construct powers, I just have to roll my eyes. The long knives are coming out, aren't they?

It's been said over and over, but I'll repeat it. If you're going to "cut the nuts off" of jump canceling, then let's start doubling the base damage of snaptrap, power fan, and construct fan. Without minimal jump canceling delay, HL is a woefully weak power. And that's before you even get into the animation time nominalization, which will slow down most of HL's powers which are sub-one second in duration. Buff the powers to account for the increased animation, and then tack on another buff commensurate with the jump cancel nerf.

Short of a significant overhaul to that power, these changes will ruin the Lanterns.

why not that seems to be the main issue here? ppl have obviously whined about jump cancelling no? otherwise it wouldnt be getting nerfed.


so why not make all powers be able to jump cancel, bet $100 the ppl who do it now will STILL be the only one's to do it, you know why?


because the one's complaining about it dont want to learn it, nor do they want to be out dmg'd. Ppl expect to get handed easy dmg, all the gear, with little to no effort on their part.


so why punish the 1s who have actually perfected your combat system thats been here for how long now? oh yes 3 years and counting...

This.

Please devs, do not back down on this. Correct the issues now. People will adapt like usual. These changes need to happen in the name of balance. You guys said Jump Canceling was never intended to be a tool to front load damage so prevent it from doing so. It will only make your jobs easier, and the game more balanced down the line.

I think the issue is not people will adapt... I think what people are saying is that THEY WILL LEAVE. That is far worse. I dont think the devs should let players opinions ever sway them, but when you have an out pouring of negative responses on here and youtube by veteran players, it might be something that should be reconsidered.

It's not like they developers didn't know this was going on. Changing it now is, in my opinion, a negative change for the game. If players choose not to play utilizing jump cancel, they have the option of not doing it. The same cant be said for JC if a .5 or whatever second cooldown persists as the intent of JC in the first place will be removed.

Hence, defending the change I find very hypocritical... as you are saying players should not be forced to play any one way (forced to JC, which you are not) yet wish to make changes to the game forcing everyone to play your way (without JC). It is sending the wrong message to players and many have reason to be angry about the changes.

If macros is the point, albiet a laughable one, then a .1 second cooldown will enable it so macros could not be executed any faster than a player with a controller in hand or keyboard.

The game will not be more balanced in any way.... the balance will just shift to the next 'OP' thing. And essentially and entire style of gameplay will be removed due to being less effective.

Wouldn't an easier solution be that all casting powers be large burst damage and only do damage after fully completing the animation. Therefore any jump before the animation ends results in zero damage dealt.

Or

Have a low damage dot then a high spike damage at the end of the animation. Any JC would result in only low dot damage up to the point of JC and no burst damage at the end. Make the dots low enough to encourage players to hold for the entire animation to get the big burst damage at the end.

this update sucks I hate it they ruined dual wield

The thread you're looking for is over here:

https://forums.station.sony.com/dcu...ombat-balance-charge-up-to-hold-input.194912/

I feel the same way.. I feel like that are taking this jump cancel thing way to far.. Iv never really had a problem with a power set and I get so frustrated every time something gets changed cuz then I have to change the way I play. I think they should leave it the way it is as let jump canceling be apart of the game like it is now.