W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

Next thing they'll nerf is DOTs because people who want to be top DPS don't want to know the timing of their DOTs, they just want to PEW PEW and be great. Or they'll nerf the stats added by trinkets because people don't like using trinkets. or they'll nerf power interactions because it's too much reading, they don't want to understand power interactions to do damage, just PEW PEW.
Jump cancelling is part of the game, leave it alone.

I'm coming up with facts to support my discussion. The very same facts that Spytle listed in the very first post in this discussion.

I also agree that players should not have to compete but that is not the issue here. You obviously run mostly league because if you are in a pug group, doing every bit of damage possible without using JC, you will be sub par and most likely be kicked due to this. I personally do not kick people for this unless it is actually preventing the group from completing the content. Again, the discussion is not to keep JC as is or remove it, it is how to fix the problems it creates. It breaks fundamental game rules, that is a fact. I do agree it should have been addressed much earlier, but now that it is, stop complaining and give valid options for how to implement it.

I'm all for removing the ability to jump cancel completly as you have said your self its a unintended do what yall see as best with adding the dove tail so that it can be brought in line. you clearly laid out how it allows you to stack to much in too short of a time. only scoreboard chasers will truly be effected as a few more seconds in a boss fight arent going to break the game but this mechanic tho unintended is creating now and future imballance.

The same as every other powerset; without an advantage.

*golf claps*

I reiterate, I've out-dpsed very good players without jump cancelling once.

Second, I've never seen someone kicked for not jump-cancelling. This is an absurdly untrue statement.

Third, save for hard light, jump-cancelling yields only a modest increase in your damage output.

Fourth, the onus on having phenomenal burn in your raid has been nerfed into a memory.

Exactly the point I have been attempting to make to all those saying "keep JC". HL will survive exactly like every other power, it will just no longer have an unfair advantage.

I didn't say people were kicked for not jump-cancelling, I said they were kicked for lower damage. The lower damage is a result of not using jump-cancelling is exactly my point. If you have never seen this happen, again you have not pugged often. It has gotten a bit better recently I will admit, but there were plenty of days where people would quickly get kicked for not performing as well as others.

How is it an unfair advantage? It's an element of the powerset that balances out its relative weak-hitting moves.

New proposed forum guideline: you can't talk about hard light balance untill you've actually raided as a hard light dps, in situations where you can't stand next to the boss and spam whip. You two have no idea in regards to what you're talking about. And Mouse, you specifically have spent the past howevermany months on these forums grinding an axe for lantern-based content - it's very difficult to take your input here seriously, because you want this power nerfed into the ground.

The long knives are coming out ...

I disagree. Let's talk about things that are true, and based in reality. I pug often, people are not getting kicked because their damage is so low because they don't jump cancel.

Like I said earlier JC can either be taken out, or the dovetail set between .3-1.2s Either way animation times will also play a big factor here with its changes, and dont forget WM even though devs have been silent in that thread for some time.

Everyone here is worried about their power and how it wont do damage. When this comes out on the test server devs will have the opportunity to nerf/buff powers as needed so everyone relax and lets talk about timing on this dovetail.

Why don't you stop it?

Neither you nor your supporters can give any legitimate reasons for the Devs to not go through with the JC revision other than you don't like it, threatening instead that you will take your ball and go home. The Devs have presented CLEAR visual and textual arguments that explain:

1. Jump Cancelling was supposed to be a defensive feature.
2. JC has been abused outside of the scope of the game's design of how powers+combos stack/clip.
3. JC creates imbalances within the game including no visual signatures and skewed mathematical advantage towards certain powersets.
4. Hard Light being not being "weak" when Spytle himself said that it has a damage curve of 2.5 times the majority of the other powersets. It NEEDS to be brought back down to a reasonable level.
5. The JC revision is non-negotiable. It is happening. All that remains to be determined is the dovetailing interval delay.

There's a storm coming, and you can howl at the wind and rain uselessly or you can choose to adapt. But please don't insult the intelligence of people here by claiming (without even trying to provide evidence) that these revisions are not necessary.

JC in it's current state is a "very wild wildcard" so to speak. It is a variable that can make or break things, too unpredictable. Devs can adjust power consumption, damage and other factors on each super power, but as long as JC is roaming around there is no way to tell if said adjustments will cause the desired effect or if somebody will find a way to exploiting them. If devs balance something, there is a good chance some players will find a way to use JC to unbalance things on their favor. In short, JC (in it's current form) makes the game hard to balance.

And of course, some powers will greatly benefit from it and other not that much, some weapons will aid it immensely and others won't. This causes certain powerset/weapon combinations to be a lot more effective that others. Again, unbalance.

Devs cannot start balancing things until JC is on check.


There shouldn't be anything Over Powered or Under Powered in the game. There shouldn't be any Top power or Bottom power, everything should be Middle. But it is undeniable that there are Top, Middle and Bottom powers.

Most of the concerns I see around here, are related to Light (off topic, but even if Hard Light sounds better, the actual name is Light). Light is definitely regarded as one of the Top powers. I'm not very familiar with Light, so I have to ask:

If JC becomes defensive only.... Would Light become a Middle or a Bottom power ???

• If it becomes a Middle power... I'm sorry, but that is exactly what should happen, go down from Top to Middle. And in the near future, it should happen to the rest of the Top powers as well.

• If it becomes a Bottom power... Well, that would be just wrong. If it happens then it should get a boost (increased damage I guess) in order to make it a Middle power. And of course, every other Bottom power should be boosted up to Middle powers.

Why not make every power a Top power ?
How many "Game is too easy, give me a challenge !!!" threads have been posted in the last month?
Making everyone OP would only make the game even easier.
And I don't think making every enemy in the game harder would be time efficient for the devs.


The question is...

Devs, if these changes are made, do you intend on making adjustments to all power sets ???

I've been assuming that the answer is YES. That this adjustments are only the first steps.
If the answer is NO... Well... that would be disappointing and disturbing.


About people saying they will leave the game.

Some of them will not leave at all, some of them will rage quit and eventually return, some of them will go for good. In my personal experience the ones making dramatic public announcements ("DCUO, I'm leaving you !!! I'm walking to the door now!!! Don't stop me!!! I'm almost at the door!!! I'm opening the door now!!! This is your last chance to stop me!!!") are the ones most likely to come back.

MMOs are not a marriage. There is no "until death do us apart". Just because you download the game it doesn't mean you have to play until the servers are closed. Some people will stick to their favorite MMO forever, but this is a small minority. Most people will play for some months or years and then leave, some may come back and leave again. This is true for every MMO and it is a perfectly normal event.

Of course, massive migrations can cause the death of a MMO (but usually, what kills them is the lack of players in the first place). About the specific case of people "leaving" because of the possible implementation of untested features being discussed before any actual implementation. Mostly, the people doing this seems to be a part of the "top players". In others words, just a sub segment of a small group. So, even if some people go, it wouldn't be much of a difference to the game.

In any case, people leaving is still an undesirable event for developers. And that is why we have Spytle trying to reason with everybody in here. A difficult but commendable job indeed.

Sorry for jumping into your discussion. I agree that JC was supposed to be a defensive feature, but some great things come up by mistake. Cocacola was intended for being a headache remedy and look, now eveybody drinks it for the joy of it. JC is a mechanic many people enjoys even though it was intended for being defensive.

And about the dovetail, like I suggested on the other threads, should be around 0.3s to be any useful. From 0.6s onwards you can avoid the JC and just clip the power with a tap range, so if we want to keep it as a useful mechanic, the dovetail should be around 0.2-0.4s.

Before this is echoed into truth, where did he actually say this, and what was the underlying context, and how was that number figured? It seems like fiction to me.

Really? In a fix that's intended to bring balance to all powersets, one of them "should" be outclassed by others? This makes a phenomenal amount of sense.

Excuse me but who the hell are you ? Oh I bet you are one of those who completely sucked at clipping. Well you got your wish granted. It's time for noobs like you to rejoice. I wish only if you would have spend some more time in acquiring skills rather than QQing on the forums this game would be in a way better state.

Noobs like you are EXACTLY the reason why this game is going downhill. Keep it up.

??? Outclassed?
I specifically said it should be Middle, and every other Top and Bottom power as well.

Are you saying you like the game to have Top powers?

I'm saying there should be no middle, no top, and no bottom. Just powers. For the most part, with some exceptions, that's what we have here. Most of the powers play very well, and situational advantages make some powers look beast when, in reality, something about the situation plays to their strength. Bring the other powers up, or tweak base damage before you just start shredding tried-and-true, beloved combat mechanics. I thought the motto of the game was "play your way." Why am I suddenly being forced to play someone else's way?

Even in an overtly balanced game there's ALWAYS going to be the top tier powers. We only want EVERY power to have a CHANCE to be the best if you play the power skillfully.