Lazarus Pit Water - Rage of Lazarus has got to go.

Since LQ likes to avoid the question can you or anyone tell me a logical reason why he thinks having 4th slot is broken but things art swapping 6-7-8 arts is fine ?

Also Keeping in mind that lazarus art gets this OP mainly due to art swap but ofcourse he just says remove the art instead of focusing the actual root issue which is art swap.

Because there's the naive assumption in the community that somehow a 4th slot will equal no more tac swapping. Not just on the forums but elsewhere.

Most likely a 4th slot will have swapping still as well.

What question am I avoiding? I do have a life outside of the forums.

I don't spend my day refreshing the forum threads.

Im only for a 4th slot if art swap gets 100% locked.

For the record im ok with a 4th slot as well with art swapping locked. This will allow new playstyles to take place and make certain artifacts like philosopher stone and dead king sceptor worth it. I do forsee a problem with certain artifacts with a 4th slot though but if we ever get to that bridge we will know.

1. Broken according to whom and based on what parameters? who defines the parameters and where can people find the parameters?

2. Cheese according to whom? again based on what parameters, who gets to decide what is cheese?

3. Quality or balanced content according to whom? again based on what parameters, who defines quality?

4. You don't need a survey to express a view privately, you have no more assurance in your concerns being acted upon through a survey or through a private message to Mepps. I'm not saying survey's aren't a good idea, just that they're not strictly necessary. Notwithstanding, this forum is here for player feedback and a good idea will always stand up against wider player scrutiny.

A fourth slot is a bad idea because it’ll be required, unlike art swapping which is a choice. It will force people to level up an additional artifact, even though the playerbase is already complaining about the monetary sink that our 3 slots have already created

Technically it would force 2 more arts since one will be for dps and one for support

Yep, you’re right

Well gear swapping and arti swapping are not the same thing. Gear provides stats, not 'buffs' or whatever you want to call the effects of artifacts when activated. If artis only had the stats, yeah...it would be the same thing, but then no one would be swapping them either, right?

I also doubt you'd switch your tank shoulders for your dps shoulders 3x a minute either.

SIDE NOTE: While it was not directed at me, for the record, I don't think I've put a spec of XP in on a toon unless it was 2x since the first 2x week came out years ago(aside from the 'artifacts' mission where you need to level up 1 time to be able to buy from constantine). I'd guess at least few times I've done over 3m saved too....why would you do anything else?

Literally saw someone shouting for 'swap troll' for Rnd 21 last night. Not saying this is proof of anything other than yeah...people do want it sometimes. Maybe that was the only guy who ever exclusively wanted it...not sure.

Don't see a lot of speed hackers running on twitch either....guess that's not happening then.

1. I feel like you haven't been reading this thread. Certain passives stacked from artifact swapping need to be addressed, especially Rage of Lazarus. Clearly this has got to a point where as Mepps stated it is "upsetting the ecosystem". My passive idea I mentioned would also significantly change controller role, so it is less likely that we would see players just spending the entire time in content in their inventory.

2. Anything that significantly reduces damage towards players and/or increases immunity for self and the group.

3. It is very difficult to balance content around this increased issue. What's the point of a group wipe mechanic if you can bypass it with a single Artifact ability, that you don't even need equipped at the time? Superman ally is also near a requirement for SWE+ for certain parts of the second boss fight due to overlapping mechanic damage at certain parts. There needs to be some changes in the way artifacts in particular work (particularly with swapping) otherwise content will become increasingly difficult to balance.

4. Surveys are good so players can express views privately - not everyone is on the forums nor wants to be. Threads get nitpicked and derailed far too often, which puts people off wanting to express their view. This is especially true in testing feedback/developer discussion threads, where far too often players derail the thread with their opinions (feelings) and divert the discussion away from the players who are actually testing and reporting feedback.

When at any point did I say remove the art? It's just the Rage of Lazarus ability that needs to go, the rest of the artifact is fine as it is.

Throughout the thread I have specifically referred to Rage of Lazarus.

Please read.

Since you appear to be engaging amicably

1. I agree that artifacts shouldn't have their effects persist after their removal. I agree it is not appropriate to have the effects of Lazarus affect your play when it is not equipped. I agree that this should be the same for every artifact, that is why I liked your earlier post about having passive effects drop upon removal of the artifact. To be honest tac swapping has been getting a lot of attention over the last few months and Mepps said clearly then it would be revisited should it appear to become a problem, perhaps the Lazarus Pit has pushed it over the line, perhaps. I have always advocated for a solution that does not involve restricting gear change but only controlling passives.

2. Does that include the Manacles as well, because it does exactly the same thing, it also significantly reduces damage towards players.

3. Who is bypassing a group wipe mechanic? Groups notoriously carry EOG healers and a solo one at that, if everyone were to be hit by a group wipe mechanic and proc their LPW at once, that would be hell on a healer. I feel like there's a fair of disingenous cherry picking going on within the context of this artifact, That's if the entire group even had or carried a LPW, which I personally find unlikely.

There's a few players that simply loathe it because of what it is, there's equally many that loathe EOG for many similar reasons but it's not receiving this level of hate, despite it probably equally deserving it (but I don't want to derail the discussion we're having about LPW).

4. Agree the Superman ally being pushed to a virtual requirement in places is concerning, but this is why the developers need to ensure they're not developing allies around compulsion, but look at numerous allies for that matter, they're quickly becoming virtually compulsory in many respects, because they're a cash cow, the developers want you to buy them so unless DCUO are prepared to shift their market I see a distinct butting of ideals with respect to these, as unfortunate as that probably is.

5. Surveys are a good way to widen the audience of feedback, I don't think it should be done with the premise of encouraging "private" feedback rather widening the scope of response to try and encourage more people than might otherwise respond across all platforms. I appreciate your view that some people prefer not to publicly post their feedback, those of us that frequent the forums are usually robust enough to not care about polarizing views. However the hazard with private feedback is that it can be done in an attempt to try and avoid scrutiny because you're wanting to avoid being called out for an idea that might be horribly bias or you know wouldn't stand up to wider community scrutiny, I'm not saying everyone giving private feedback does that, only that it can and is an element at times, I'm not saying you're intending to do that either.

You were saying on the start of the thread to remove the ability rage of lazarus effect so tell me what else has this artifact has to offer if this effect was let go off which is what you have requested? Its pretty much saying remove this art if you wanna remove the main ability,lol.

Also this artifact itself isnt the main issue, its art swap that caused this art to be broken and there are also many other inbalances caused by art swap if you arent gonna talk about how art swap is the actual issue you are just trying to sugarcoat the issue and are one of those people who dont want art swap to be removed despite knowing it causes imbalances due to own agenda purposes to benefit from this unintented „feature“ also art swap will cause more issues and its just a matter of time when new arts release and we will have things like this happen again,think longterm not shortterm.

I probably have to agree with zNot as much as some people might not like this particular ability, the artifact is worthless without it. removing the Rage of Lazarus immediately sends this artifact back in the realms of worthless which is exactly the opposite of what was trying to be achieved during the testing and artifact re work phase.

I do seriously think a lot of angst comes off this artifact if the passive effects were to cease immediately upon its removal, notwithstanding that I'm certainly prepared to listen to your ideas about attempting to tweak Rage of Lazarus, but to remove it completely, yea that get's a massive hell no vote from me

Rage of Lazarus is a broken passive regardless. So unless Lazarus Pit Water goes back to the drawing board Rage of Lazarus still needs to go. Very much in line with the thread topic and title.

Yeah, let's agree to disagree, I think it's fine lol doubt we'll reach common ground on that part, appreciate the conversation nonetheless