Do not remove hard stuns from PvP (GU38 discussion)

One is an intended effect in the game mechanics ones a bug.

yes guys i know and thats a fair point. But u guys were judging me like i didnt know anything but im glad u undertood my point.

I am glad that you decided to keep hard stuns in, but I agree with your initial instinct about keeping PvE and PvP consistent. It just makes more intuitive sense for players and makes the transition from one game mode to the other easier. May I ask why you were pretty certain you wanted the change in for PvE? If you wanted counterhits to be more forgiving I think a cooldown reduction on the breakout trinket could help. Or perhaps reduce hard stun duration down to 1-1.2 seconds. People may disagree with me but I've always felt the current hard stun duration was slightly too long.

I would prefer that you not change this aspect about immunity. While it is annoying to have multiple people getting immunity at the same time, I believe there are situations where it's fair for that to happen. If someone taps block I only have approximately half a second to catch it. So if I correctly predict the block and throw a BB perfectly, I want to be rewarded immunity even if one of my teammates randomly lunged at the same time and granted my opponent immunity at the last half second. BBs and blocks have a set vulnerability window, which aren't terribly long all things considered. So if I counter within that window I like that I am rewarded.

If something were to be changed I would prefer that immunity duration did not stack. This would prevent the situations where two people continually grant immunity to each other infinitely. Another option would be to keep PvE and PvP consistent, and take out the damage immunity portion of the mechanic.

On the mental stun lock, I am not sure how its done or I would've PM'd the Devs about it already. What I do know is, that when you get hit with this, all you can do is spin in place and the only way to get out of it is to go into your inventory and move an item to another slot.

A few reasons why I would want it changed.
1, I bb, he trinkets lunges.
2, I bb, his teammate lunges or aoe combos.
3, I counter, do a combo, his teammate is blocking or he gets up and blocks.
There are a few other situations where double blues happen, but you get the point. If I counter, I should be able to do whatever I want in that immunity window without being punished by giving out blues.

When these situations happen, the person picking up imm from the person that had the blue originally, wont always be blue, but will have immunity. Which lead me to believe that this wasn't intended anyways, so this is why I always felt it needed to be fixed/changed.

Way to come together and keep this feature in pvp.

Your first example is a bit fishy I agree (this would not have been possible in the old days), but I think your other examples are fair. In #2 the teammate saw you BB so he lunged. The proper response to a BB should always be a lunge if you can do it within 1.35 seconds or whatever. #3 is something we've always had to worry about; screen blocking and how to get max damage within the punish window before they can react.

When you counter successfully, you already can do whatever you want. You can pull off your PvE rotation and don't have to worry about punishments at all. You think of it as being punished by giving out blues, but really that's just being greedy when you already have free reign to do whatever you want.

Its not just punishing me, but my teammates too.

But your teammates can be farming immunity in the same way so it goes both ways. Like I said though I'd prefer other solutions like immunity duration not stacking or taking out the damage immunity part of it.

And that is why you should use correct terms.

Even though hard stuns and stunlocks have same purpose, it's never a good idea to use the same term for both of them.
Just creates a lot of confusion like it was demonstrated in this thread.

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But in all honesty, even developers have mentioned stunlocks as hard stuns.

• Most control effects like knockdowns, stuns, juggles and others can now be escaped by using breakout. It should be much more uncommon to be afflicted with a "hard stun" during combat. These types of control effects now mostly occur as part of some important mechanic and not as part of moment to moment combat.
• Counter Attacks

1. Knockdowns inflicted by interrupts, block breakers and blocking can now be escaped with Breakout.

So here Mepps mentioned stunlocks as "hard stun" and hard stuns under counter attacks just as "knockdowns".

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Huge thanks to Tunso.
Does not matter if we love or hate the decision you guys make at end. Most important thing is information.
So thanks for giving some feedback and answering to the thread.

Don't be a stranger, visit us more often. We do feel very alone sometimes here under the PvP section.

How about NPC inflicted hard stuns in PvP?
For example minions from Circe and Dr Fate are involved in the whole hard stun mechanics.
Will updates on PvE make you be able to break out from their hard stuns in PvP as well?

Can this be explained to me, as I may not be understanding this correctly. I've seen you state this before Clutch, but I don't really see it as being fair. I can only assume I am missing something somewhere. EDIT: (deleted example)

Nevermind! I was reading it right and I do agree with Kara.

QFT

Also, I believe if this were to happen, whoever gets the immunity first would simply spam whatever (e.g. MA's S.Storm) knowing full well that nobody that counters them would receive the same reward for that period of time. It's a lot of reward and leaves the other party with a small margin for error. I only see it being okay if immunities were significantly shortened in duration. The stacking is annoying though, no doubt.

And this is the whole problem. In larger games like 4s+ you don't get whole teams with immunity, but in 2v2s it isn't uncommon for 2-3 people if not everyone to all acquire immunity at the same time while they refresh it on each other. This is especially troublesome because it means someone can get countered, trinket themselves up and get immunity themselves yet they'll have the better outcome as their immunity won't wear out first. This helps as they have a little extra time to take a couple more risks in trying to force a mistake and therefore more chances to punish and refresh that immunity, even if it's slight.

On top of this, it's far too easy to acquire immunity currently. This is because with the way the immunity works you can punish moves which are technically "correct" meaning doing the right thing isn't always the right thing to do. This has another downside in that skill isn't always rewarded and instead it's actually about capitalising on the skill of your opponent sometimes. This is just counter intuitive and really should be changed.

It isn't being greedy because you don't have free reign to do whatever you want currently, if you do you risk giving multiple people immunity & putting yourself at a disadvantage as well as your team. You have to think about the bigger picture, let's say I decide to go hype and just blitz my opponent on a counter say with an outrage/ec combo. Now let's say 3 of the other team block this outrage and they all get immunity, that's basically 6000-9000 potential lost damage. I actually see this as being potentially more hurtful than the burst you deal to one player because although a heal will be forced, overall pressure on the team will be much lower.

A legends example would be if I was playing with a DoT team. If I were to do the exact same thing against a countered opponent and give away immunity say to a their partner in a 2v2, that will prevent our AoE from being as powerful and will cost over 1000 DoT damage on the opponent. This is extra time for their opponent to hunt for counters, a small buffer period to force mistakes to further farm immunity and more time alive in the long run to further improve their chances to hunt for immunities or that allow their colas/shields to refresh which can completely turn the game around.

The logic in that is completely wrong. If I see an opponent throw out a block break, land it, acquire immunity and then lunge that is the wrong thing to do. That's just allowing the opposing team to benefit from something you did right, which makes no logical sense at all.

The latter part of that sentence doesn't come into it, you can do max damage before they can react all you want but that isn't preventing the opponent from cheaply gaining immunity off of your attacks. You will only serve to provide the opposing team with immunity, drawing out the game, making it longer and actually hurting your team more than helping it. Not to mention if I'm the one countered, i can just wait until they're about to do a hold, use my trinket and cheaply acquire immunity despite them not doing anything wrong.

Yes screen blocking has always been an issue we have to consider when pulling off combos, however screen blocking an opponent with immunity again isn't the correct action to take. Immunity's aren't as strong in the defensive benefits department as they once were (with WM in arenas they're only a minor defensive help) and they need that extra opportunity to deal damage without hindering there team for it to be worth it. However if you think about it, it is very easy to end up giving the opposing team more damage than your own team because if anyone's trying to pressure as previously mentioned then they will still do more damage overall to your team.

This would just make people who don't land the counter first be even more likely to have a greater benefit than the person who first pulled off a correct counter.

The system the way it is right now is the equivalent of combo breakers in Killer Instinct (new one) not locking you out if you mis-time or don't break the right strength of attack. So basically if the opponent screws up and/or the player out-wits or fools the opponent, the opponent could just counter them right back and end up in the advantageous position with the chance for a cross up.

People who pull off the counter FIRST should always be the ones getting the benefit of it, this encourages people to ensure either their timing or reactions are more on point than their opponents.

This current system actually encourages punishment of performing correct actions, not just the punishment of mistakes.

If you spam MA's shuriken storm, the window for the final attack will be longer than immunity leaving yourself open for a counter. Not only this, the damage won't be optimal.

This is why it promotes skill, because the reward for counters will be greater. Currently, counters can end up in the other team receiving a greater benefit and it can punish you for technically doing the right thing.

This is exactly how immunities used to work & it was a much more stable and rewarding system. The current system as I've explained many times is far too unstable and punishes people who do the correct thing far too often.

Currently, both teams have the same opportunity to counter. Despite your explanation I just feel this would actually lead to abuse and even more of an immunity farming game. People should be concerned about consequences even if they're under immunity. I think making this so lopsided only eases the combat and it still doesn't seem fair that you're throwing a interruptible attack and I get nothing from countering you like you did from countering some other member in my party just because you got immunity first, even if it is a single S.Storm or any counterable attack. That just sounds horrid and I'm glad they don't work like this anymore.

Then again, I feel that immunity is just a bandaid fix to make the playing field "fair" and I hardly call it a tool of skill as it just promotes newbies a chance to do damage without receiving any when they do something right, like giving a treat to a dog. We don't need to reward them any more than that. I'd rather it simply have a damage punishment for failed counters and that's it, but there are reasons as to why this isn't the case and it's a subject for another thread.

Why should someone in Counter Strike get a head shot on you because they reacted 0.0001 seconds faster than you, why should someone in KI be punished for trying to counter break but guessing the wrong strength of attack, why should a team benefit in DOTA 2 just because one member of a five man team stayed out of position for 1 second too long?

This is what makes games more skillful, where one mistake can be heavily punished and the margin for error is very small. Being able to receive a benefit from someone countering one other persons mistake is completely the wrong way to go about it. Wanting to dumb down PvP just to make it easier again is going against the devs aim of wanting to have a competitive environment to PvP.

Not to mention, a harder to master PvP system means it is deeper. Deeper PvP means it's more rewarding to play & encourages improvement. Not only this it helps competitive scenes grow.

Before anyone claims that it would make counters too difficult and too punishing with this game, this game still isn't close to the level of difficulty to succeed in games such as the ones I mentioned in my first paragraph. This system isn't even close to being too punishing for anyone, even the most casual of casual players.

They have the same opportunity regardless of whether someone has done something right, this is more reason to change it as it doesn't sufficiently reward skilled players.

Let me ask you, what is the most difficult thing to master in PvP?

Counter mechanics

Newbies aren't going to be landing many counters against skilled players, however skilled players will be landing a lot of counters. Newbies can't benefit from things that they won't be landing. Therefore, how can a newbie benefit from something that they won't be able to do? That's because it doesn't reward newbies in any way, shape or form.

According to your logic, rewarding someone with an insta-kill because they landed a headshot is "like giving a treat to a dog" and is "hardly a tool of skill". There's a reason why these act like "giving treats to a dog" because they're harder to pull off, if something is harder to pull off then obviously the reward should also be bigger.

That's the whole point.

I played at the top level in the system where people with immunity couldn't give it to others, I can say due to extensive experience at the top level in both systems that the current system is far more forgiving to newbies.

On top of this as previously mentioned, it really makes PvP far less stabilised and less fun.

Tunso,

The immunity system made a lot of people actually quit DCUO. I would like to see it stripped out of the game but that is my own opinion. There have been far too many bugs with immunity. When immunity was first put in, we lost a lot of leagues due to the distaste of it. We lost a lot of players from TapHoldClip, the entire RockPaperRifle league, Fami players, DC Chillin(LoB, WBTR,Temper Tantrum,whatever you wanna call them next), and many other leagues. The immunity system has just turned into a system for players to spam block to stay alive instead of fighting. Also, I have a few friends from overseas that say the immunity system does not help his or her lag. It just made it harder for him or her to compete.

Reverting the changes done to the tank cleanses would solve a lot of these issues. Removal of immunity and reverting tank rebuffs or cleanses back to 6 seconds each would help support classes a lot. Also, toning down the damage of weapon mastery damage in arenas is HIGHLY needed. Yes support needs all the help it can get, however, immunity is NOT the answer. Reverting the game back to where it was is the answer. I wish you could just disable WM inside of arenas but I don't think that will happen. So the next best thing is to tone down the damage of weapon mastery. In my last premade match against theotherguyz, I did over a mil of damage just by spamming mostly WM combos. This needs to be fixed. It's not okay. The damage is way over the top. I do not appreciate it. WM is driving people away from PvP. Also, PvP debuff grenades and PvP serums need to go. They have no place in PvP.


And please before you decide to remove a mechanic from the game, consult the community first before you make more people mad. The hardstuns from counters are highly necessary.

I agree with pretty much everything you said other than this, I spend my whole time in PvP doing everything I can to force people into blocking. People who spam block with the people I play with die and die very quickly, it's never a viable strategy.

I think immunity should stay but just be adjusted.

Would this change have fixed CC? PvP is so frustrating in that respect - I jam shift several times to remove the effect just to be block broken.

In the notes for GU38 they said they have fixed it, need to test though.

Look, I'm an old school player. I never liked the immunity system. It's a matter of opinion. It caused a mass exodus from DCUO.