Do not remove hard stuns from PvP (GU38 discussion)

As I said, you have free reign to do what you want. That includes choosing to spam or choosing not to give out blues. You can just as easily play safe and not provide opportunities for people to farm immunity off of you. It's what you should be doing anyways, actually. A DoT based team in legends can choose to let the DoTs do the work for them and provide little to no opportunities for counter. I believe you demonstrated that yourself when you used Steel against Doktor Wixxer's Catwoman.

You made a false assumption here. I said nothing about seeing an opponent land the BB, acquire immunity, and then decide to lunge for the heck of it. That would be stupid. It's not very realistic either because you only have one and a half seconds at the most to react to the sight of a BB and lunge. More likely than not you're going to see someone throwing a BB and you're going to try and interrupt it right away, not wait for several moments to see if they land it first.

The third example was the most fair situation. It's the only situation where you could choose not to give the opponents immunity. If you think they're going to trinket immediately you just do a shorter combo. If someone is screen blocking then you do a single target combo. And if screen blocking someone with immunity wasn't the correct action, then there was nothing wrong with Eminence's example to begin with and the current system should be fine.

The person who scores the first counterhit would have the advantage even if immunity duration did not stack. They scored the damage, the hard stun, got a shield, AND got counter immunity. They then have the initiative to do something risky and perhaps give the opponent immunity, or they can do a shorter and safer combo for guaranteed damage. It's a very common risk/reward setup in fighting games with wakeup games/okizeme.

And if we're going to talk about fighting games I need to point out that I know of no fighting game with a mechanic equivalent to immunity. There are plenty of instances of hyperarmor in fighting games but nothing that gives hyperarmor PLUS damage immunity. I can see why you would make the comparison to KI's combo breakers since they do damage in that game but it's really not the same thing. You can't initiate an offense with a combo breaker like you can with immunity.

The system we have now (ever since immunity was introduced) is already very punishment oriented. It used to be that a successful counter gave you huge damage and a hard stun. Now it gives you all that plus immunity. What you want would make the game even MORE punishment oriented for an already non-noob conducive environment. In fact, I believe it would be more punishing in a bad way because it punishes people who would have scored a counterhit but for someone else's mistake that was completely out of their control. That's the definition of being less skill based and more luck based.

And I think JonnyD brings up a valid point. If the first person to score a counterhit got immunity and could not give up immunity himself, he could basically do a short WM combo for free. In the current state of pvp and WM's overpowered damage I don't want to see that happen.

I really wish now that immunity didn't provide damage mitigation. Then we wouldn't have any of these worries.

Refreshable, god mode immunity was excessive especially in arenas. Current immunity just has dodgy mechanics but acting as a shield is great.

What about removing it from arenas but keeping it in legends, the immunity is needed from counters quite badly within legends.

I'm open to legends keeping it but it has no place inside arenas.

It seems like your knowledge of legends is rather outdated and/or limited. That video was taken back when steel was horribly overpowered & since then he's been heavily nerfed. If that same match up was to be played now I would get destroyed.

Have you ever heard of conditioning before in fighting games? It's making people believe you're going to do something after doing it for a while purposely so that you can throw them off by countering it. This is exactly how a burst character forces a DoT player to make those mistakes. The difference now is the top DoT characters can be forced into making mistakes, the Steel of old was so BS that you couldn't condition him because simply tapping & dot stacking with power usage was all you needed to beat almost every legend consistently.

How is it not realistic? I react at between 150-180ms and the average is 200-300ms, if you have one and a half seconds of BB window then that's easy to counter. let's work it out:

I play with 50 ms on the EU server and the hold input is say 350ms while let's go with an average reaction time of 250ms.

1.5 - .35 - .25 - .05 = 850 ms of time to play with which is HUGE for anyone that plays on reaction.

Not only is it easy, I've done it countless times in competitive games and it's just cheesy.

You can't do a shorter combo, even if you do something simple like tap hold on brawling someone can still breakout of it and block it. You shouldn't be forced into playing guessing games when countering someone with the possibility of your opponent gathering immunity and you coming out of the exchange with almost nothing.

You just kind of proved my point right there.

The thing is with wake up games is that if you're going for a cross up etc. they are on the floor because you already punished them and/or landed the combo. Basically the equivalent in street fighter to the current system would be if you would have to punish someone twice otherwise you would end up in the same situation.

If you've ever watched high level SF games you'd realise punishing someone who's a skilled SF player isn't easy to do, just like punishing a high level player isn't easy to do. Even worse than this, it's even harder to punish a a skilled player twice when it is so easy to abuse the current immunity system.

"Last but certainly not least, his Instinct mode gives him five hits of armor. If you're hit while the armor is active, Glacius will absorb the attack and continue his offense."

Yes you can, sadira can combo off of combo breakers. You can also combo off of counter breakers & can also perform shadow counters with all characters.

This doesn't even make sense, perhaps I'm reading it wrong.

Counters are always in your control, if you get countered even by someone off screen it means YOU did something wrong. If I get BBd by someone spamming solar flare above me because I tried to block someone else (and it happens a lot) then it is my fault and I deserved to be punished for it.

I have no idea how you count that as luck based, because it isn't even close. If I misunderstood, I apologise & please elaborate.

No damage mitigation in arenas would probably be a good option, but it is needed for legends. Again, DoT characters would get an unneccesary buff as they will be the only characters able to still deal pretty good damage even when countered. However without immunity healers would be hit in arenas considering before hand that's all the game consisted of, just ask someone like yallander.

Considering legends is the devs chosen game mode for competitive play and they (as I have stated several times) want a competitive environment for this game, making this game more skill based and harder to learn is a good thing. However, even the game with the old immunities was far from not being noob friendly. It's difficult to learn but not even close to how difficult other games that I have mentioned are to be good at.

P.S. don't use overpowered WM damage to justify this bad immunity system, two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes i notice it. But at the end i let them know what i was talking about and is all good now. And as u have mention even the devs reffer to the stun lock as a "hard stun" so i really dont get why some people think that a hard stun is a simple thing whn is not. But anyway thanks for the reply and i hope that it help some guys undertand that in here.

It's a good example because pre-nerf steel was what you get when you take a dot-based character and take it to its extreme. It was overpowered, needless to say. Conditioning is something everyone can do so it's not really an advantage limited to burst characters.

You're right, it's very easy to interrupt a BB if you're both standing still and performing no other actions. It's not as easy when you're dealing with the dovetails on your animations, breaking out of CC effects, latency, and trying to keep track of everything going on during combat. Sorry if it was unclear but that's what I meant by realistic.

Is there honestly no combo from any weapon that can be performed before an opponent can break out and shift into block? I'll believe you if you say so. If so I suppose you would have to settle for non-combo forms of guaranteed damage. You'll be able to perform longer combos when their trinket is on cooldown as well. I would also say it'd be very stupid to make a habit out of immediately blocking after recovering from a hard stun. So, regardless, you would be at an advantage for forcing your opponent into that kind of mix-up.

Eh, your thinking on that doesn't feel right. The counterhit in this game IS the punishment. After that punishment you further get guaranteed damage or a free mix-up.

I'm not familiar with KI so you can tell me how Glacius's immunity is balanced against the rest of the cast. I also wish our immunity worked liked his if this part is true:

"However, after a hit, his armor is gone for a few seconds before it becomes active again."

Are DoT characters the only reason you think legends needs immunity? We sort of had this discussion before, but I just feel that if DoT characters have an advantage it's because they inherently do more damage. It's the same argument you used for WM; don't use overpowered legends characters to justify a bad or unnecessary immunity system.

BTW I think it's okay if we prefer different systems. I'm just trying to illustrate that an argument can be made for keeping immunity as it is. I mean, I am seriously very very tired of having to adapt to the complete overhauls in combat mechanics this game has gone through.

I never said it was an advantage of burst characters.

The conditioning part of the comment was referring to how the current DoT legends can be forced into making mistakes, you couldn't really do this with steel as even with constant hold combos his damage outclassed others when combined with his survivability. This was because he didn't need to worry about counters. So what I mentioned sn't an advantage in anyone's favour, it is showing that currently it is more balanced.

Now, Steel wasn't overpowered solely because of his damage. He was overpowered due to incredibly high DoT AND great survivability. Not only did he possess the only UWC shield in the game at the time, it also had a shorter cooldown with others. Not only this, but vanilla steel also had the same health as everyone else. Hence, conditioning didn't work as everyone could play the same way with steel (safe and not needing counters) and win.

You say it isn't realistic yet several players can react to blocks in the middle of a game. Blocks have half the window of block breaks so yes, it is entirely realistic. In fact, it's rather easy in comparison.

As I said, I personally do it a lot in legends, duels and arenas.

Of course there are certain combos, maybe like MA tap hold combo you could pull off. However as I'm sure you're aware the damage is pitiful and you really would not gain much here. Plus what happens if you play a character such as catwoman, use her 243 and someone breakouts on reaction and just gets cheap immunity? This basically leaves the other player with being the benefactor of the whole exchange because they made CW waste a chunk of her great burst damage that is on a high cooldown.

Now if counters actually did more damage inside of legends, your argument would hold more weight. However dealing less than 5% damage to most characters in legends isn't really close to being suitable damage for a counter. This is why the damage granted isn't a suitable reason even when combined with the others to allow punishment while in a state of immunity.

All instincts provide a different kind of advantage/s, for example jago gets a healing over time effect if he isn't hit for a while or sadira places webs which hard stuns people that get caught in them. On top of this, upon activating instinct it freezes time & allows the one who activated instinct to easily identify what their opponent is doing to counter it.

There's more to it than that but that's the real basic run down of it. I guess you could compare them to SCs somewhat but glacius' mechanic actually resembles immunity somewhat.

I think the issue you're having is you're not truly considering the differences between the different damage types.

DoT characters do far less burst/single target damage usually in comparison to the more bursty oriented characters. However DoT characters do constant streams of damage regardless of what they're doing & it's often AoE. Without immunity, they would continue doing pretty good damage (600-800+ in a counter window) even if they were countered and hard stunned. These immunities at least allow some mitigation of this safe damage and actually make a pretty decent dent in the damage they do as well as make them far more power-inefficient (especially with dots that have sizeable cooldowns like Steel's or Bane's).

I can completely understand and do also mostly agree with it being removed in arenas, considering there are other ways of surviving there (healers, stronger and more shields, HT mods etc.) the immunity added on top can be a pain. This however is why I would prefer the old system over the new for arenas, as it would stop multiple people farming immunities + it would allow for safer burst allowing for faster matches + also making counter skill more important thanks to it being more punishing. Removing them would probably be a better option however.

I'm sure many arguments could be created for various immunity systems, alternative mechanics to immunity and just complete removal of immunity all together. However my argument is based on what would reward skill the most and allow for deeper PvP in regards to DCUO's chosen competitive mode - legends. However as stated I'm aware that arenas & legends do differ and that's why I wouldn't be against immunity removal from arenas as long as hard stuns remained.

Despite this, if it were a choice between removal from both or kept in both that kept in both is the most logical solution (for reasons previously mentioned).

There's parts im for and parts im against but overall Im just not a fan of it anymore. The whole WM thing just feels ridiculous in competitive matches. It's already a spam fest, I really don't see the future for PvP being productive with the changes they are proposing. This is probably the most stupidest idea iv'e witnessed since playing the game

How did this go from Hard stuns to long discussion to immunities?

As it was part of my "how to fix pvp" section on my original post, plus I mentioned it to tunso when he replied

Tunso said he wouldn't mind changing immunity back to where you can't get immunity off of someone who has it already. I personally think it would be a bad change right now. As JonnyD pointed out it would let you get off WM combos for free after a counterhit and no one could do anything about it. I was going to write another long reply but I guess I'll stop, lol.

@Clutch
You can get a lot of punishment in already if you wait for an opponent to use their trinket, so is it really necessary to get something like Catwoman's 243 into stealth for free any time you score a counterhit? A shorter combo plus counterhit damage isn't as much, sure, but free damage is nothing to scoff at.

I was also asking if you think legends could be balanced without the need for damage immunity. I think it can if you toned down some of the dots. Should probably bring Catwoman's shield clipping and stealth in line as well either way.

Guys guys... Clutch you are defenently awsome in Legends PVP & got good ideas... Karasawa is defenently 1 of the best PVPers on USPC in normal PVP!

With that said clutch you would prolly beat Kara in Legends, but Kara would also most likely beat you in normal pvp.

Now with that said smoke the peacepipe or i shall have to DANCE THE P.I.M.P BOOGIE for you both!!

The argument here is this, should you have to play safe after you gain counter immunity?

I feel that you're playing safe leading up to the counter, why should I have to play safe after I did something right?

Yeah but considering theres no WM combos in Legends it becomes a whole other ballgame there!

Think most of the argument between Clutch & Kara is becuse they look at this from 2 diffrent wievs...

WM kind of messed the rules up a bit in normal pvp!

Don't get me in trouble Fred, lol. I just have bad memories of pugging arena and having teammates lunge a guy over and over again even though he's just holding block. At least now I can get immunity for myself and be a bit more self-sufficient rather than having one noob on my team making it impossible to win.

Well Kara if lucky end of this week or next week my proper PC will work again then we have to kick some butts in arenas ^^ !

*hope i still got my moves*

WM just adds another counterable combo to the picture, not much difference. Maybe you can explain? Legends is almost like arenas, just without support, it all comes down to who counters better. I have been playing Arenas competitively since the merge and Legends comp since they announced an SOE Live Tourney.

Why do people think that I wouldn't be as good in arenas as I am in legends? I'm currently the best dueler and arena DPS on EUPC and wixxer is a close second (even with his amazingly high 69 skill points) and we're both primarily legends players. Being able to play on reaction is a massive help in both environments, and in my experience every single top level legends player has always been top level in arenas. I've never met a top level arena player who's been top level in legends without a sizable amount of practice however.

Hell even slob had to practice a lot after switching from arenas, he wasn't as great as he is now before playing legends primarily & it benefited his arena game too

This would easily be fixed through non-refreshable immunities combined with my suggestion.

I just want it to be like it used to be; back when arena pvp was at its apex. You could break out of being blocked, and the hard stun duration was a bit shorter. This made for a much faster paced environment, which also required even more skill than what we have now. Back then power management was much closer to the forefront when separating the average player from the elite, whereas now it is who has the faster internet connection, and who gets lucky with the games anticipation of what you're going to do; you know like how sometimes when you clearly lunge a guy block breaking you but the server anticipates them blocking you even though they didn't so they get the blue immunity instead of you; yeah that is quite annoying and it happens pretty often and there is nothing that can be done to fix it.

Basically I just want to be able to break out of block
I want interrupts and block breaker counters to have the old hard stun animation
I want to be able to block and let go really fast again

I want the old fast paced combat system to return; blue immunities can stay though.

No it didn't because counters weren't as dangerous as they are now, how does this even make sense?

I have a 2 mbps internet with 500 kbs download and have won all EUPC tournaments and all but two on USPC with 250 ms latency. This just isn't true

The best players play on reaction nowadays, there's no luck involved.

It sounds as though you don't even play anymore?