W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

My question is how is Hard light gonna put out any damage!?

A simple .3 or .5 sec delay on jump canceling would be fine no need to go all crazy. this stuff is getting way out of hand and is chasing people away.

People defending jump cancel saying if you don't like it, you don't have to use it. It is those very same people yelling "scrub, noob, etc" to players that don't. If JC stays in the game it is a REQUIREMENT for most powers to be anywhere near COMPETITIVE. It is a mechanic that though they have known about, it was NEVER intended to exist. Essentially, it is GAME BREAKING, and that is exactly what they are trying to address. It breaks the basic rules that were set for the game since launch on how certain powers/abilities/attacks are supposed to work corresponding with each other. The first post explained this perfectly, and made absolute sense. I do agree some OTHER changes will need to be made to certain powers to help make up for lack of JC speed, but I am also sure the devs have been looking into this. This is a plan to BALANCE the system, and actually make JC an OPTION rather than a REQUIREMENT to be competitive.

hello guys, long time lurker, first time poster...

I want to see the NPCs start to jump cancel in the game, it would only be fair right, right???

lol

This is how I would like it to be. I play on PS4, so it is impossible to clip as fast as some PC players do, much less with a macro.

My suggestion is: Once you commit to a move (Fear Gas, Plasma Retch, etc), Disable the ability to jump for X amount of time (1 second, .5 second, .8 second, whatever testing finds that feels right). If you press X before this time, the toon will buffer the jump and will jump automatically after the disabled time expires.

The way I do my clipping with Rage/HB is this: Cast Plasma Retch, while puking plasma I hold Triangle, when I jump, the toon goes straight into the Hold Range move, I then clip Solar Flame with Dreadful Blast and continue.

I really enjoy the "bunny hop", as I call it, of buffering the Charged Blast while Plasma Retch is active and would hate to see it go. If I do Plasma Retch, Hold Triangle, Jump too fast, the game could simply play the jump -> charged blast after the "no-jumping" time expires.

Most moves that are JC-able have dreadfully long animations. If the damage/effect dissipates when you jump, players will simply stop using the move and look for alternatives (if they exist) and either be forced to change powers and look for the next silver bullet, or stop playing.

My guess is this will happen.

Devs will input WM, Animation time changes, and either get rid of JC, or change dovetail anywhere between .2-1.2s.

This will of course create massive imbalance amoung the powersets, however devs will have that time to buff or nerf powers while its on the test server. So just relax.

What's wrong with that? In pretty much every other game there's a mechanic that players have to learn if they want to get their game better.

@Dump Truck

People come and go all the time, it is an MMO. Just because a few people leave, does not mean new players will not take their place. Just think of all the progress any MMO would make if it took every single one of its customers threats seriously? Change is the nature of the MMO beast. If change is something people have trouble dealing with, MMOs are definitely not for them.

These changes are for better of this game in the long term. By toning down or removing the ability to front load damage by jump canceling, the devs effectively control our damage out and make it uniform, thus making new content harder, and being able to better balance power sets going forward. With jump canceling fixed, power sets can be looked at and balanced fairly, and not balanced around who can cancel animations the quickest. These changes are all about balance. It's hard to balance gameplay and power sets when they have so many variables to take into consideration.

By making these changes, which I and many others support 100%. It will make balancing easier on the devs. I have always said this, and that is that the truly skilled players will always adapt to the changes and make these changes work for them. I know I am not worried as player who has had a Gadgets main since beta and one character of each power set, I know I will make all my characters work as effectively as they do now, after these changes. If I'm not worried, you shouldn't be either.

@Spytle

Please do not let nay sayers sway your opinion. We will relearn the new combat system once all this dust settles. You guys are doing great work. Keep it up, and make the changes you guys feel need to be made. Do not back down on this.

The problem is that some powers cannot participate in this at equal levels of other powers (HL). You specifically said if someone doesn't want to JC they don't have to. Well then the same people that do not want to do it, should be able to compete on an equal playing ground. I can JC with the best of them, but I would prefer to not do so because it is annoying and a bad mechanic. I do not enjoy it whatsoever, so why should I be forced to use it as my only option for competitive play. This is what the changes are trying to do, give players who enjoy weapon combos, and enjoy using their powers, not hopping around like an idiot, an option of play that will be on PAR with JC.

Wow that's your mindset? I hope the devs don't share this. No other powers need jump cancels because their powers hit much harder and relies more on DOTs.
It's not like HL is getting so much damage from jump cancelling, they NEED it to do damage as their powers mostly hit like pillows. No decent DOT, no power interactions, no decent 35%, no 60%. It's good now because of the speed they can pump out damage, but it's at a SIGNIFICANTLY higher power cost compared to other powers. That IS balanced IMO.

I've actually never called anyone in this game a scrub or a noob for the way they play. This comment is baseless BS. Up until my very recent conversion to HL, I never jump-canceled for offense. Since returning to the game this summer I've been out-DPsed in an end-game raid maybe six or seven times - that's in seven months of daily play. Instead of pitching crap on people, I praise my teammates who make me look very good every night - folks like Tadurk and Sable Glaze and Oct who keep me from getting hit, and who group targets in a nice little package for me. Or, folks like Poundyourface, Psycfyre, Masta and Alpha Cell who keep me juiced up, and folks like Acesa, Watagata and Galatea Star who keep me alive and let me get in close.

Moreover, when people ask me what I'm doing, I explain it, show it, and then invite them down to the war room to help them test it for themselves. Many, many people - like Jeebie, like Obsidian, like Crappy, like Kaiser and WD and Elusian and so many others - are the same way, they share loadouts and they coach people up, and they're on here arguing against the jc changes. The demonization of these players must stop, it's absolutely ridiculous, and moreover it's insulting and it's wrong. People wouldn't have beaten T5 raids for months if it weren't for folks like this.

JC is a completely optional mechanic necessary to really only one power and moderately beneficial to a range of others. The feedback on this topic is so staggeringly inept and out-of-touch I'm just at a loss. It's a sad day, DCUO. It's a sad day.

Then why was HL considered the TOP dps until cel and rage came out? (with a LOT of complaining from the HL community) Nature can compete for sure, but you never see fire, earth, electricity, sitting on top of the leader board with HL, Cel, Gadgets, Nature, Rage, even Quantum in there. AS I SAID, the DEVS are almost definitely going to look at the damage certain powers do, such as HL, to address the issues with slowing it down. The issue is people expecting the whole community to do what you do just to compete. JC will still be a SKILLED asset just as before, but it will be more timing based rather than speed based. Just wait until the DEVs have SOMETHING in the test servers before throwing a fit about losing YOUR(definitely not everyone's) favorite way to dps.

Play a week on USPS and you will realize how many of these people are out there. I am sorry if I offended those of you who can JC and are not that way. I also have spent time teaching people techniques like this to help them better their own skills as a DPS, I just do not think it should be a necessary way to go about doing it. I do think there will need to be more changes to HL to address the issues that will be created with JC changes, but no one has even given the devs a chance to address that.

I've out-dpsed great HL players with mental (which doesn't use JC) in both Nexus and Paradox, and on more than one occassion, and never with phase dodge. The "HL is king" echo chamber means nothing. It's a great power, sure, but this community perception that all you have to do is roll a HL toon and jump cancel to completely out-class similarly-skilled players is baseless and it's coming from people who've never used HL that way.

I'd also stress that HL looks even better now, because players can sneak into melee range in all end-game content, and the health of the targets has been nerfed to the point that dot-based powers don't have an opportunity to flex their strengths before stuff is dead. None of that has to do with an imbalance in jump-cancelling. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. It's completely unrelated. People don't truly understand the cause of the scoreboard discrepency they're seeing.

Well HL better be top DPS, do you see how much power it eats to be competitive?
Most of the HL dps out there still ONLY use ram snap fan, and do them from long range. Not to mention many don't even incorporate a phantom triangle.
I agree that electricity, fire, earth may need some improvements, but wouldn't it be easier to just improve their base damage numbers instead of remaking the mechanics from the ground up?

I never listed mental, because I know mental has great potential. As does ice, sorcery, etc. I have always been skill>power on this game and hate to see people say "this is OP, that is OP", I was just using an example.

Back to first base. Jump cancelling is an unintended mechanic that was never supposed to exist in the game in the way that it does today. There are certain rules that govern how you can stack powers with clipping, and JC should not be a way around these rules in any case. It is an abused element of the game that can give some powers an unfair advantage over other less clip or JC friendly powers. This is the problem I have with it in its existing state, and I feel wholeheartedly it should be fixed. On the same note, I believe with the other balancing of animations across the board of all powers it will help address any unbalance created with the changed to JC. I also believe that the Devs need to continue looking at the damage of certain power sets with the speed of JC removed. All of this I am pretty sure is in the works, and the issue at the moment is that no one wants to give it a chance. No one wants to give up their own preferred way to dps. I agree having to go back and relearn your loadout/rotation will be a little annoying at first, but it is not something you don't have to do every single time you try a new power. Stop threatening to quit, stop saying "Absolutely no." to the changes because they are going to happen. Make suggestions on how it should happen and wait for it to be on test to point out flaws in the system.

I agree

It really is... If the issue was balance then why did I it take them from hard light until now to address it? To which point the power set is still completely weak without this ability. Or why did it take over two and a half years to adjust fireburst? I agree with obsidian chill here. JC is not a difference maker if you can or cannot complete any content in the game.... Don't get where players get the 'compete' from. It certainly is not the case. This is the wrong direction to go in in my opinion.

Dude just stop it. Stop coming up with lame arguments to support your discussion. You are just embarrassing yourself.

I see the issue with people immediately attacking/chaining an attack immediately after a jump (cancel or otherwise)

I thought the "dovetail" was a follow-up of the jump to delay the next attack input and in the other thread you were looking for suggested "sticky" length. (Like how Block sticks and then you have to wait before doing something else...like a scripted animation)

If all Moves that are Channeled follow the same characteristics of Cyro-Foam rather than Fear-Gas Spray/FAN...then jumping still allow an for the Channeled power to be cast with the mobility of jumping but that power is now clippable by a Beneficial Superpower. Cryo-Foam can be clipped by a beneficial super power but did not have it's animation clipped by Jump-canceling.

If most Offensive/Beneficial attacks were changed to this then there is still an issue with Flight's movement.

The Jump-cancel would only yield increased mobility while still casting an attack (ability to relocate out of AOE danger) the attack/power animation would still play through and only a beneficial power/consumable would clip the actual animation.
Basically Jump animation canceling would be completely gone.
(But people didn't jump-cancel Cryo-Foam, they could jump to increase AoE application potency or clip the animation with a Beneficial SC - Fear Gas could not increase application by jumping to "cover more ground" and it also could not be clipped by a beneficial super power - instead jumping canceled the animation at the cost of some DOT ticks.)

Flight would need "Jump" changed to allow hover movement during one of these Channeled attacks. Jumping while in Flight movement mode active does not animation cancel Fear-gas/Fan instead you are left vulnerable in place waiting for the animation to finish or some powers you can movement cancel. (Using Bizarro as an example - Fire Breath can be Flight canceled but Ice Vision cannot be Movement-canceled - Both on live can be jump-canceled if movement mode is not active. With the proposed changes to jump and channeled attacks - jumping with either movement mode on or off would just allow both attacks to be mobile while performing the attack- since Bizarro lacks a Beneficial Superpower to clip Fire Breath or Ice Vision.)

Gameplay speed using these adjusted "Channeled" Offensive Powers will be slower with loadouts that do not have a Beneficial Super power - but on the Contrary a Gadgets Player would only lose out on the "Phantom Triangle" damage as they would not be able to animation clip Fear-Gas Spray with a beneficial super power but would not have the ability to mask a weapon attack following a jump-cancel, like on live. (Jumping with Fear-Gas would just allow this attack to be mobile rather than locked in place.)

Cast time moves like the Kamehameha's, IOR/Bloom/Guardian's Light/Ionic Drain, Mass Det/Mass Lev, Soul Well, Whip Thrash, Light Blast, and any weapon combo/attack should just gain mobility when jumping. No jump animation cancel just the ability to relocate for better positioning.

I don't play Legends, but after watching a few videos...

Why not just remove jumping from Legends characters altogether?

Is the mechanic even really used outside of canceling?

This post is in complete ignorance, so take this suggestion with a grain of salt.