Why is there no hard counter to Air atm?

This comes down to question what hard counter really is.

Does hard counter mean Skyguard should always be able to beat the Liberator no matter how many mistakes driver does and no matter how good the pilot is

or does hard counter simply mean that Skyguard drivet will only win if he is better or equally skilled as the Liberator pilot.

If the Lib gets a drop on you then he is the more skilled one. In order for Lib to sneak up on you:
1) He must spot you first which is hard because as I've said Liberators have larger hitbox and they have sky as background. They are much more noticeable compared to Skyguard.

2) You must be oblivious to your surroundings. Skyguard's job is to keep an eye out on aircraft. You must always assume Liberator will try to come from behind you.

Here are hard counters to rear attacks: headphones and A/D keys.

Point I was making is that ESF will fly away when under flak fire specifically because it knows it will lose against Skyguard. You can't then say Skyguard isn't hardcounter when apparently aircraft are too scared to engage unless they can sneak up on it.

I don't like Skyguard because it creates stalemate. Aircraft are forced to go somewhere else because they can't do anything against AA and Skyguard in turn is left with nothing to do.

Thats why I'd play damage buff / range nerf card. Skyguard would become killer instead of deterrent and aircraft could still operate in the region because unlike now you wouldn't be able to cover entire region with one Skyguard.

I like your idea for damage increase and range nerf i just hope itd work god knows im tired of Scyths 600M in the air slowly moving toward the ground just blasting away with their PPA cannon without a care in the world.

Now i am bias against air and i dont know if they are OP i have little experience anytime i pull an aircraft im shotdown by an experience pilot in minutes at least with a tank i can find an unguarded sundy and kill it or kill some infantry with air i can tickle a sundy and maby get its shield down before another aircraft obliterates me.

And as an infantry well you just feel like you cant do **** to them if a tank kills me i can C4 fairy him or use rockets or pull fractures sure theres a decent chance he will get away unless the c4 gets him then hes ****** but you dont feel hopeless but with air shooting you if you pull lockons well they are out of range most of the time and when they are in range it either takes too long to lock on because of stealth or they just flare and then after all that you shoot them with the lock on and it just makes them leave for half a minute.

I honestly blame the way AA is designed Low damage huge spray super duper easy to use. Basically if im good with C4 fractures rocket launcers i can kill a tank but no matter how good you are you cant kill good pilots do to the low skill ceiling.
So give us more damage less spray and make us earn our kill but at least give us the option.

So are we now counting how long it takes for a Skyguard to drive from one base over, pass around a mountain, and finally climb a ridge to figure out the TTK of the Skyguard?

The Liberator can move much more quickly and with much more agility than a Skyguard can.

If the sniper is limited to 2 dimensions and has to maintain a field of view while the shotgunner has unlimited jetpacks and can move much more quickly, then that would be accurate.

And a great picture of why Liberators have no right to complain about "range" issues. Closing distance when you have complete control of all three dimensions should not be a challenge.

As for a Skyguard not positioning themselves better, you forget that it's the Liberator that decides when and where the fight takes place due to the greater mobility of the Liberator. In my Skyguard I just move along with whatever armour or infantry group I'm protecting... but ultimately it's the Liberator that decides to chase me down, not the other way around. The Liberator can pick whether it wants to attack me and my allies when I'm in a valley, behind a ridge, etc. And if the Liberator happens to find me in a position where I am set up, the Liberator can simply choose to leave because of their ridiculously high health. But in the reverse situation my Skyguard cannot choose to leave because the Liberator has an advantage in speed, armour, and firepower.

Really the same issue exists with the Vulcan Harasser. Short weapon range and short TTK isn't balanced when the vehicle it's on can move quickly in and out of range. This means that the vehicle can get in and out of engagements without being killed.

The only difference between the OP Vulcan Harasser and the OP Liberator is that the Liberator is far more difficult to kill, can move in three dimensions, and only requires one person to use the problematic weapon.

That's how terrible the Liberator is at the moment.

I bought a single walker for my sunderer.
I can singlehandedly keep away a liberator, in favorable conditions.

Kill a liberator? they seem very tough, so it's hard for me to take one down with a single walker as long as they retreat.
Thankfully this isn't a 1v1 game and I have allies. Friendly ESF, MAX, skyguards (& non-skyguard tanks with good aim), heavies with AA launcher, that stock harasser on a distant hill with the basilisk etc

I wish they had less health, because I like certs and I own a walker...but their health is balanced around anyone and their dog being able to shoot at them from the ground. If a lone sundy driver can almost bring one down before it takes cover, I think they're balanced.

Right? This whole thread seems focused on a 1 person trying to down 1 lib or esf or gal. The game doesn't work like that, you can see air coming from a good distance away. To be in a reasonable range to THREATEN anything that air needs to get moderately close or hover to do reasonable damage. This makes it PRIME bait for skyguards, bursters, walkers, flak, archers, etc.

If it is lower it becomes lock on bait. If even HALF the people that play HA most of the time carried an A2G launcher, air couldn't even make an attack run without maxed flares, and if half the people also just looked up and shot their primary at ESFs, no air would get to do anything.

The only reason air is a problem for people is that the majority of foot zerg IGNORE THE AIR. That is the problem. Hell 2 sundies with stock basilisks can put hurt on anything in the air, it isn't super fast but those things don't tickle either when 4 of them are focused.

Yeah, and everyone also has access to a weapon that is practically a one shot kill ESFs. If air if attacking the ground, most of the time they are moving in a predictable manner, making them more vulnerable to dumbfires. The only time an ESF can survive a round from the default launcher is if they haven't taken any other damage AND they have fire suppression ready. I love it when ESFs try to farm the ground when I'm around because landing a dumbfire on one and getting the kill is a very satisfying feeling.

I've taken to trying to play tag in AP lightning with ESFs, I figure if I hit them with a shell I get bonus points =p And that tends to be an almost dead hit for them. Same when I get into base turrets, I make it a point to lob shells at air if I can, I'm sure they enjoy it when I hit!

Anyone who argues that a single Skyguard can defeat a liberator is lying. I've had enough skyguard duels to know better.The only singular ground vehicle that can stand up to a Liberator is a hardened Sunderer with a Walker+Basilisk combo. And even then it's a tossup, if the Lib gets the jump on the crew, the lib still wins. With composite armor and enhanced magazine size on the tank buster, a Liberator can tank damage from render range (about 15 seconds) to tank buster range and then waste the skyguard in 2 seconds (unload tank buster, pop with dalton) because for 90% of that distance the Skyguard is just not doing any damage because of the inaccuracy of its gun.

Anyone who argues that skyguard should have limited range is disingenuous. it already has the most ridiculous COF of any weapon. I.e. this is already the case, you can't more than tickle aircraft more than 200m away. Meanwhile, aircraft DO have range. The Tankbuster is one such weapon where it'll only devastate targets from close range. Meanwhile, the dalton and shredder and vektor can wreck tanks from render range. Imagine if the Skyguard had the Vektor as its gun. It'd immediately be the most OP vehicle in the game by a wide margin.

Low skill ceiling for AA? Not by choice. In the end, you're pointing and clicking at things. With a gun that is too inaccurate and with too low bullet velocity to actually hit aircraft that are moving perpendicular.

The Skyguard vs Liberator problem goes deeper. One is aircraft guns. All aircraft-specific guns are VASTLY superior to any gun available to the ground. Air PPA is much better than ground PPA. Tankbuster would be ridiculously OP on any ground vehicle. Shredder is by a wide margin the best HMG in the game. Why do the devs think if you put a gun on an aircraft it suddenly becomes 10x better? Why do the devs think an aircraft should be about as tough as a tank? An ESF is as tough as a Harasser or Lightning, but with more speed, and initiative 100% of the time. A Liberator is in many cases tougher than MBTs.

The first thing that needs to happen is that Air guns and Ground guns become equal. Any gun that you can mount on an aircraft (Shredder, Dalton, Tank Buster, Vektor) you can also put on ground vehicles. Imagine Harassers with Banshees, like an uber Kobalt instagibbing laserbeam that can damage vehicles.One you've done that, you need to either improve the remaining ground weapons, or bring the OP air weapons in line. Now you may find: Aircraft can no longer kill anything because they no longer massively outgun everything on the ground. Or: Ground battles devolved into instagib-fests because all weapons are suddenly 3 times more powerful than before, and aircraft are getting instagibbed as well the instant someone with an appropriate gun takes aim at them.

Yeah Skyguards (and AA MAXs) maybe should have a bit more DPS at closer range, although they aren't too bad currently in that respect. Your best chance of a kill (on ESFs anyway) with either is often to hold your fire till they are pretty close and hope they've taken a bit of damage.

The best buff a Skyguard could get (IMO) though would be a form of engagement radar (maybe AA MAXs too).

+1 On engagement radar installed by default with the Skyguard. But it's all fruitless without an increase in damage (or alternatively, a reduction in the Liberators toughness)

liberators flying with small tilt have everything they need to know about the ground right in front of their faces and operating their weapons is relatively simple: you either shoot in front of you or operating a gun is your sole job. Also, if skyguard fires its weapon you get convenient tracers leading right to it, making it a primary target.

Skyguard needs to split its attention between navigating in ****** terrain full of annoying obstacles, being aware of a crapload of ground based threats (there is always some vulcan harasser eager to buttsecks you) and looking in the sky of which a significant portion is obstructed by terrain, trees and buildings through a small window. If they fire at some other target, they are locked for a long time because it takes a lot of spray to deal a significant damage.
How long does it take a lib to dive from the ceiling to the ground level using some convenient mountain to approach right into the attack distance? 10s of which skyguard on the ground had maybe 4s of theoretical opportunity to notice given the LoS limitations?

headphones do jack and ****. Engine sound of the tank overshadows lib sounds. You have to stand still in a 3rd person mode no less or even exit the vehicle with no action going around to stand a chance of noticing the lib sound from any range that doesn't spell your imminent doom.

So what is the difference between this and let's say AV mana/lancer nests creating no mech zones? Maybe if the enemy stacks too much anti-X for you to handle maybe using X is not that great idea? At least, unlike in case of AV that destroys the mech forces that is not able to retreat fast enough, you can wipe the tear off your eye and fly your unharmed farmmobile to greener pastures, gibbing all lone vehicles on the way unopposed, collecting free certs.
Air has it easier than any other formation in this game.

I don't think lib weapons are necessarily more powerful than other weapons(the vulcan cannon comes to mind), it just the advantage of being above it's target, and being able to get in and out fairly quickly. Just like when you put a vulcan on a harasser it immediately becomes more effective than on an MBT.

I'm confused about why you'd bring up putting a Vektor on a lightning? The 2 vehicles fill different roles. And speaking of, it seems like the whole point of a lib is to wreck tanks. Complaining that it wrecks tanks at render distance is like complaining that a sniper can wreck infantry at render distance. That's the whole point.

Also, the lite PPA may be better than the regular PPA, but they are giving up their nosegun for it, which makes them a target for other air. The A2A secondaries don't pick up the slack in that scenario. They may as well have a glowing beacon over their head, because they are an obvious easy kill.

Like someone else said, the AA situation isn't really fun for anybody, so maybe they need to figure out something else.

Crying about Anti-Air is nothing new.

The most crying comes from those that don't know how frustrating AA-duty is to most people.

The only thing broken are players' attitudes. They find that being snarky and arrogant, going on about how "hard it is to fly" on the forums are more rewarding than finding in-game solutions.

...

Would you like con contribute with something constructive, or will you be fine getting more of this thrown back in your face?

Actually ground-based vehicles should get better stuff than whatever air has. Harder hitting, longer-ranged, higher caliber cannons. Longer-ranged and faster flying missiles. Because while aircraft are limited by weight (gotta be light enough to fly), a ground vehicle with wide tracks is not under the same limitations.

If your complaint is about Libs, please phrase your title as such:

"Why is there no hard counter to LIBERATORS atm?"

People should use words that don't confuse their issue(s).

Both of these could be acomplished with a slight CoF buff. The SG CoF is insane vs any other mounted vehicle weapon.

Had some luck with the fractures versus libs.

Good, let's do it.

Want to shut down the air game for a bit? Get a Sundy with dual walkers and either deploy shield or max blockade. 4-5 man squad (if going with blockade might want 5 to be mobile and fire.). Or two dual walker sunderers one ammo one repair.

Set up someplace with a good view, have bursters and walkers watch the skys and even a galaxy ain't gonna want no part of that crap. Even the 4 walker setup would be a freaking air death zone

A lot of this talk about liberators being a big problem and the like forget that those are 2/3 or 3/3 to be maximally effective. For equal comparisons you'd want to have like a dual walker sunderer with both guns manned and then add a burster. Or 3 skyguards. I'm fairly certain no lib would want to take on three skyguards at once or the other option in there.

And again if it ever enters lock on range, if even 1/8 of the normal foot Zerg would lock on that'd be plenty of shots to kill a lib.

Air isn't broken, the tools to fight it are much more prevelant and easy to use, and running grounder, nemesis, or the nc one are dumb fire too for general use.

Lightnings have much better armor resistances than ESFs. Just because they have equal health doesn't mean they are equally tough.
And guns are not always better on aircrafts than on tanks. ESF guns for example can only shoot straight forward, it's very hard to aim with them and only give little time til you have to fly away again.

And when you have aircrafts as big as Liberators, then it makes sense that they also have very powerful guns. It's sad that the game doesn't have similar big (ground) tanks too, but I think that comes from that the maps were not really designed for ground vehicles this big, I guess?

People always think aircraft is OP, because they can fly and attack enemies from above, but when you attack enemies out of the sky, this also means that often the whole battlefield easily can shoot at you, which is what many seem to forget.