Why is there no hard counter to Air atm?

17 pages of invalid arguments stating the lib is overpowered. There's nothing peculiar or wrong about this at all. It must just be a bizarre coincidence that this thread has 17 pages. People must be looking for a good read. Piloting is really tough that's why you see so many aircraft in the sky. It's because libs and esf pilots are generally professional gamers, and they want a really tough challenge. Not because they deserve a 10+ k/d, but because they like the challenge of how difficult it is to get kills with aircraft. It's really hard to kill anything at all when piloting. It's so very diffucult to spot things from the sky and effortlesly drop down and steal the kill. Pilots care so much about hacking bases too. They never just want to play the game solo for their own personal gain. None of them are like that at all because they all want to sacrifice their own bodies to capture ground. Pilots never mind if they have a .03 k/d because the extreme hard core challenge of reseting the fight again and again, and struggling to get one or more guranteed kills every 45 seconds can be quite gratifying for them. At any given time, on any map, at any time of the day there is at least 3 skyguards driving around and killing everybody because the skyguard is so deadly and easy to use especially on Hossin. Skyguards kill everything so easilly. It's so easy to get a 20+ k/d with a skyguard everytime you pull one. The need to remove 3 barrels from the skyguard gun because it can curve bullets into the enemy warp gate and kill everything on the map by not aiming. Skyguards never have to lead a target 6 inches on screen, and magically predict 5 seconds into the future because its so very overpowered. Everything is so easy for a skyguard that's why everyone has it certed, and people log into the game just so they can drive the highly powerful skyguard cert machine. Skyguard when piloted by MLG professionals like to sneak up on their targets and effortlessly get the super extreme easymode kill on liberators. I can't wait for the next time I can log in and pull a skyguard, and get 100 kills in an hour.

No, a skyguard can kill an ESF in less than 1 mag, unless they are far enough away to dodge most of it, in which case the ESF will be rendered far less effective due to the damage drop off of noseguns, and possibly the complete failure of hornets. An ESF can't face down a skyguard without help, unless the skyguard operator is incompetent. The best chance they have is to be sneaky and hit it from behind with hornets.

What's wrong with a 4 second TTK? A 4 second TTK is quite generous compared to what a 1/3 Liberator can do to a Skyguard!

A 1/3 Liberator has a 1-5 second TTK against a Skyguard. Allowing the Skyguard to return the favour is simply fair.

Or would you be fine with toning down 1/3 Liberator TTK against a Skyguard to 20 seconds at a minimum? Maybe 15 seconds given how the Liberator costs slightly more resources?

The skyguard needs its bullet to also hit the target as well as the explosion, with this they can increase the lethality of the skyguard if you get too close to one while keeping it the same at longer distances.

Again you are on about these 1/3 libs and how 20% to 40% are solo by the numbers.

What you, (of course) failed to take into account is that every libe is solo piloted when it is pulled until the gunners get in.

Every single lib is solloed for as long as it takes to land after being pulled.

Many lib pilots pull a lib and sit solo in the warpgate waiting for gunners.

This does not mean that 40% of libs are flown by solo pilots.

In reality about 1 out of 50 libs is 1/3.

Also the only time a 1/3 lib kills a skyguard is if the skyguard is completely noob with no situational awareness and no positioning at all.

Sitting on top of a hill with no cover and expecting not to die badly to the air vehicle that is designed to kill tanks is worse than stupid.

If you back up to a building or a wall or a tree, then you will never get tankbusted in the rear. In fact a lib wont be able to sneak up on you at all that way.

You could also position yourself near a tower facility and use the garage as cover to repair should you find yourself taking lib fire.

You could get a friend and sit back to back so that the lib cant bust you in the rear and kill him before he can kill you.

You should constantly switch to 3rd person and look for incoming enemie air trying to bust you.

You should be with your friendly armor column.

Only lone wolf skyguards die to libs. Those in the column with the tanks that 2 shot libs and the sundies with their basis and walkers dont die to libs.

The only skyguards that regularly die to libs are the bads parked on top of hills far from the armor column trying to solo entire airwings.

No. Just no. A skyguard should automatically self destruct if it sits still longer than 5 seconds.

(when the most basic of evasive maneuvers while keeping gun on lib would have turned that encounter around.)

So by most of your comments here I can only assume that you don't skyguard. I don't use racer 3. I use racer 2 because 3 has a ridiculous punishment for not correcting falls in bumpy terrain. You can move all you want in a SG, but the terrain keeps you quite limited. Moving fast just means you're turning wider and making un-sharp curves making it easier to track you by a nose gun. On a perfectly flat ground you can keep the gun on the lib, but you're typically still gonna die. 1v1 you will have a better chance at killing the lib, but if he's halfway decent and flying with a gunner you'll loose everytime. You loose because he's 15 ft away smiling at you while you know you're probably not gonna get a chance to redeploy. You have to always be ready to loose your skyguard nearby some type of canopy or cover if you want to live. Maybe you can get to that tree when you see a lib closing in, and redeploy in time, but most likely not. Why redeploy you might ask? Because lib pilots/gunners don't need to be fed any more exp points. They have just plenty as it is, and that's why they are flying in the lib to begin with. It's easy mode plain and simple. And who ever let VS libs have a 80% armor bonus for 2 1/2 years should be forced to play as a TR or NC skyguards for eternity. It's pure hell. The entire VS empire should be punished for 1 year without access to libs and all lib certs earned should be revoked in that period they exploited an armor buff.

It's obvious that I don't play with a joystick, and you don't pull skyguard after skyguard upon skyguard in heavy air situations. Sit in a skyguard for one week and see how it is. Come back when you get sick of tiny damage exp on libs that you tried everything you can possibly think of to deter them. Fight off multiple libs in a skyguard for a few hours and see how many kills you get. Let me see your auraxium skyguard badge please just screen shot it and post it. I bet you don't have one, but I'd bet that you do have some auraxium awards on aircraft.

Double spacing everything doesn't make you more eligible when most of what you imagined about skyguarding is wrong. lol

Can you please show us your auraxium award for your skyguard because I don't believe you have one. Do you even have gold? Maybe you do I could be wrong, but I'm guessing you don't.

Skyguard is liberator food 95% of the time. If they have a gunner with them then backing up to something like a wall isn't gonna save you. They will still come and kill you because it's really easy for them to do so. The tactic is useful however for having a chance to redeploy.

Lone wolf skyguards actually do quite well. That's actually one proper way to skyguard. Go deep into enemy territory and avoid tanks and libs and pick off ESFs retreating to safe haven. This comment is just more proof that you don't actually play skyguard. Lone wolf skyguards aren't stupid. They are deadly and smart for knowing the risk can actually offer some reward if done properly. Try it for yourself. Go alone though because taking somebody with you increases your chances of getting caught. Most aircraft originates at the warpgates. Get behind enemy lines and lay low and look for unsuspecting ESF's. You may just bag 12 of them before they send vehicles after you. I've done this many times. A lot of dead pilots can vouch that Tealeaf has killed them deep in their own territory. Bring full auto repair, fire extinguisher, speed chasis, a lot of ammo and full reload. You need to be able to keep mobile when multiple ESF's are trying to hit you at once. Essamir is a good place to practice this tactic as you can move around somewhat easily, and snow camo can work quite well.

Yeah i have many kills in a skyguard because i play everything before i speak about it.

I know how to lone wolf a skyguard, i just described it in detail.

It's very easy.

You should try flying a lib. Go and tankbust some skyguards and post the videos.

My characters are in my sig, feel free to check on anything you want.

Just checked.

Stats for skyguard.

TR 45 kills 5 hours 41 mins used.

NC 8 kills 1h 51 mins.

VS 139 kills 14h 35 mins.

Stats for AA turret.

TR 57 kills 5h 47 mins.

NC 6 kills 2h 10mins

VS 12 kills 1h 50 mins.

And you are right, double spacing doesnt make me more eligible, but it does make it more legible.

I hate air...like...vehemently. But even I have to say that we have more than enough AA options to counter them effectively. The trouble is that you need a coordinated group in order to use them effectively. 4 or 5 sky guards and a handful of shoulder launchers can easily clear the skies over any base.

If anything the only thing that really needs to be changed is how the Libs can out fly an ESF. Part of the trade off with a Lib from an ESF is that they are supposed to be slower and more vulnerable to them. Instead we end up with Libs just rolling over and belly gunning everything. Props to the guys that are good with their aim but that effectively knocks out most enemy ESFs.

Wanna fix the air problem? Take a look at Libs and make them the way they should be. Heavy fire support for ground targets. Not lords of the sky. Either give ESFs an advantage on the Libs or adjust the Libs so they are more vulnerable. The ground troops don't need anymore AA options.

"I know how to lone wolf a skyguard, i just described it in detail."

Honnestly Smooth I'm not trying to be a jerk, but the only thing you described to me in detail is your lack of understanding on the matter.

I've gunned a lib for a little bit and I don't pilot often. This is true. But when I have gunned a lib it was typically a pure farm fest. I'm halfway considering spending time to calibrate my PS4 controller and begin flying. This is the only thing stopping me as my system setup with my resolution and connection speed doesn't encourage air play. I'm actually not bad using an ESF with the mouse, but that is not due to skill in aircraft, but more so success from decisions made. it's not that difficult to do well in air, and even a beginner pilot as myself knows this. Likewise a skyguard is not that hard either until libs spot you then you're often in extreme danger. Something is not right here. So are you a really good pilot? I would guess that you have some better stats using air than a skyguard, but maybe I'm wrong.

Because the data is based off of hours of time played, you cannot be correct. Probably very far from the truth.

Let's assume that your 1/50 or 2% estimate is correct. That the rest of the time the Liberators are landed, freshly pulled and simply waiting for a gunner.

This means that Liberators spend 18-38% of their time on the ground waiting for gunners. In other words, out of every hour played, 10 minutes to 22 minutes would be spent on the ground simply waiting.

And obviously that's not the case, or the warpgates (most common place to pull a Liberator) would be flooded with grounded Liberators!

Really if you go watch Liberators at a warpgate you can see immediately why your 1/50 approximation is wrong. Just go and look at the Liberators. See how much time they spend on the ground. I assure you, as I sit in a Galaxy waiting for orders, I can count many Liberators touching down and going.

Like I said, the real number is probably in the 30% range for 1/3 Liberators. Not as high as the 45-50% upper bracket, but obviously far more than the ridiculous 2% figure that you put forward.

If you really are honest about 1/3 Liberators, how about this change. Unless a Liberator has at least 2/3 of the seats occupied, the engines and weapons will be disabled. It will not be able to fly or fight, and if already in the sky will plummet like a rock. Then we can see the difference in Liberator usage time.

Until then, it is pretty obvious that the 1/3 Liberator is a massive problem and balancing the Liberator around 3/3 (or even 2/3) is highly questionable.

If you're annoyed by ESFs, get lock-on/coyote ESF.
If you're annoyed by libs, get a solo TB lib and one shot it with extended mags.
If you're annoyed by gals, get a solo TB lib and 2 shot it with extended mags.
If you're annoyed by ground vehicles, get a solo TB lib and 1(tanks from rear), 2 or 3(shielded sunderer) shot it.

Yeah it's pretty sad.

Because, Bill, there are discrepancies between how a skyguard works and a tank buster works. Libs do NOT have a 1-5 second TTK. They have a 15-30 TTK vs a skyguard currently.

1. Tank busters have to be close. Skyguards work from far away. Skyguards are on a lib for more than 5 seconds before the lib even realizes it is being hit by a skyguard. It is impossible for a lib to kill a lightning in that time. This is when the TTK counter starts counting.
--JUST number 1 alone justifies skyguards taking 17-20 seconds to kill a lib. Any faster and libs would not be able to fly *at all.*

2. Skyguards blind Libs. They blind the gunner if the gunner is pointed at them. They blind the pilot if the pilot is trying to tank bust. How would you, as a slyguard guy, like it if lib guns blinded the lightning?
--JUST number 2 alone justifies skyguards taking 17-20 seconds to kill a lib. Add that to number 1 and skyguards are actually a tad OP when considered from a skill/reward metric.--

3. Libs are targets to more things simultaneously than skyguards. They are getting shot by more things at all times. That's why libs have a lot of life.

4. Skyguards are significantly easier to aim as lightnings are significantly easier to control. Libs are hard and have to deal with crashing. That's why tank busters have high dps. Both the range from point 1 and this point.

5. Libs are big. Lightnings are small. The difference in how large the broadside of a barn is in this case is staggering. Skyguards don't even have to hit directly. You just have to get close enough!

Myself and others have told you all this before. You have ALWAYS ignored these facts. You know what is wrong with a 4 sec ttk -- you just think you are smarter than other people and can therefore 'fool' people into thinking something is useless when it is, in fact, very powerful AND easy to use. All for your selfish play style. This is why you are Bill O'Reilly.

But hey, it's NOT just you. There are other people in this thread that are just as selfish and myopic as you are.

And it blows me away that you guys STILL talk about this when the devs have entered multiple threads like this, shut them down, and even directly stated that the lib is not getting changed as it is how it is supposed to be.

This comes down to skill. Liberators are definitely capable of taking advantage of cover in this game. If a Liberator chooses to fly out in the open, then that is a mistake on the part of the pilot. It would be no different if an infantryman rushed out in the open Esamir fields or if a tank rolled out in the Indar desert. In Planetside, if you do not take advantage of cover, then you will die. It's simple.

Aircraft are by no means exempt from this. Aircraft too must make effective use of cover to mask their approach. The problem is that aircraft have been buckets of HP because pilots simply cannot grasp the concept that they need to rely on cover and concealment in order to fly.

Range can be a balancing factor... but not when the weapon is mounted on a speedy vehicle. The Vulcan and Vulcan-H are great examples of this. The MBT Vulcan is considered to be underperforming because the vehicle it is mounted on is not capable of rapid attack. But the Vulcan-H, which is statistically weaker than the MBT Vulcan, is highly problematic because the vehicle on which it is mounted can move very quickly, negating the range factor. In this sense the 1/3 Liberator is imbalanced in the same way... short range is meaningless when Liberators can pop out from behind mountains and speedily make their way to the target.

Liberators can blind Skyguards... by flying in from the direction of the sun (if it is daylight). The Liberator doesn't even have to open fire for this to work.

So should Liberators have a 20 second TTK against Lightnings to make up for this?

That's not true at all. There are far more AV threats than AA threats.

MAX AA versus AV Usage
AA- 1,197.1 hours (31.4%)
AV- 2,610.7 hours (68.6%)

Infantry Rocket AA versus AV Usage*
AA- 574.9 hours (20.5%)
AV- 2,236.1 hours (79.5%)
*Rocket Launchers are classified as AV if the number of vehicles killed per hour was at least double the number of aircraft kills per hour.

Lightning Skyguard AA versus AP/HEAT AV Usage
AA- 448.1 hours (36.6%)
AV- 777.4 hours (63.4%)

And that's not including threats that exist solely against ground units, such as C4 and AT mines.

Aircraft actually have it very easy. Relatively few people are out there are gunning for them, and far more are spending their time engaging ground vehicles.

This is completely confirmed by looking at cause-of-death statistics. For Liberators, in the top 10 causes of death, only one is from a ground unit (the Vanguard's AP cannon). The rest from enemy action are from other air units. Ground-based fire isn't dangerous to aircraft at all... because it certainly isn't the thing that ends up killing them!

A Skyguard, on the other hand, not only has to worry about more threats to himself than any aircraft has to face, but also is vulnerable to aircraft in return!

Skyguards might have an easier time aiming at a target... but certainly not hitting that target.

The Skyguard has a minimum CoF of 1.25... while the Tank Buster gets an 0.3 CoF. This means that the Tank Buster is 76% more accurate than the Skyguard!

The Skyguard also features incredibly slow velocity... at 400m/s. This makes it difficult to land shots at range. Against a target 800m out, the Skyguard would have to not only fight the ridiculous CoF but also be able to predict where the pilot would be two seconds in advance. Which in PS2's momentum-less flight physics is pretty much impossible if the pilot is evasive (ie flying in anything other than a completely straight line).

The TB's ease of use over the Skyguard shows in the stats. The most accurate Skyguarder in the entire game has an accuracy of 48%. The most accurate Tank Busterer? 85%... almost twice the accuracy of the best Skyguarder! For the average player, a Skyguard will get 28.1% accuracy but the Tank Buster gets 41.3%... a 47% improvement over the Skyguard!

So sure the Skyguard is easier to point at the enemy... but hardcoded CoF, velocity, and bloom limiters prevent the Skyguard from actually hitting anything. Hitting things with the Tank Buster is much easier than with a Skyguard. That's a fact.

As in my response to #4, given the Skyguard's ridiculous CoF, proximity doesn't matter.

The only way a Skyguard can become accurate is to get closer to the target.

This is difficult because the Skyguard is a relatively slow ground unit that can't exactly chase after even a lumbering Galaxy.
Against a Liberator, getting close is ill-advised because you're essentially just feeding yourself to a Tank Buster. Might as well make those Liberator pilots do some work to eat up a Skyguard.

On the other hand the Liberator has access to weapons which make hitting a Skyguard far easier due to higher innate accuracy... and to top it off the Liberator has the speed that the Skyguard lacks to close the distance.

Again, the Liberator has the clear advantage here.

I've proven that based on in-game performance and usage data, you have been completely wrong on every point. It's like that guy who was saying that air is the least played role... when there are in fact more ESFs than Lightnings! Pilots have a very funny view of the world which is apparently quite divorced from reality.

Because obviously censorship doesn't work if there is a real problem. Sure you might have one guy go off and complain about something... but when enough people are negatively affected you can't silence them all.

Right now the Devs are obviously catering to the pilots, but they can't go on unfairly protecting you forever. The day will come when Liberators and other aircraft are going to be balanced. All available statistics and metrics show that AA is heavily underperforming and the only logical solution is to buff them in one way or another. These threads that keep popping up aren't an accident or a fluke... there is in fact a real problem with overpowered aircraft in the skies. Anyone who plays the game can see it.