Why G2A makes no sense

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by TRspy007, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. TRspy007

    Let's put aside the tryhard pilot mains who will try to claim everything is fun fair and balanced. Why are there no viable AA weapons for infantry and vehicles?

    The best way to get rid of air so far is to simply pull and esf yourself and fight A2A. Good luck doing so against a manned lib or gal tho.

    Why do none of the AA options actually work in their domain?

    Burster MAX: Flak might scare some new pilots, but the truth is it doesn't do much past that. The mags are too small, the rate of fire, damage and velocity are too low to actually do anything against fast moving esfs or heavily armored libs/gals. Not to mention, the MAX has no way to catch up to air or win head to head against air. Therefore, burster MAXes are just able to sit in the spawn room and tickle aircraft that flyby and farm infantry. Also bursters are not versatile, so you can't actually be a burster MAX main anyways, you must constantly switch weapons in order to deal with the situation, assuming you last more than 2 seconds against anything.

    Lock-ons: The biggest joke there is. The purpose of these things is supposed to be AA. Why does it take more than 3 shots to kill an ESF, more importantly, why does locking on to air take so much time, and the lockon range so short?? Seriously, the aircraft needs to be in your face, and it takes a good 5 seconds to lock on. By that time, you're either dead or the aircraft has flown outside lockon range, or behind cover. Even if by some miracle you get a lock, you'll never kill anything that's not already burning. Also why can ESFs outrun rockets or dodge them with such ease?

    I won't even get started with locklets.

    AA Phalanx turrets: Sure, they're free (unless you are at a PMB), but unlike the AI or AT turrets, they basically are just as bad as lockons. Slow to pivot, overheat in a few seconds, fire slowly, inaccurate, slow, do little damage, the list goes on. There's really no point in manning one, in fact these turrets lose head on against air, which is pretty ironic considering they're meant to destroy it.

    Normal launchers: Why must the decimator be the only thing that doesn't launch wet farts out of all the launcher options? The default launchers should be able to 1hk ESFs, and the decimator should 1hk ESFs no matter what. There's no reason why composite armor ESFs are so strong. If they're distracted enough to get shot down by the lowest velocity rocket in the game, they deserve to die.

    Ranger/Walker: Is the walker even AA? That's all I'll say about that. The ranger is similar to a burster MAX, only since it is on a vehicle it can be more mobile and harder to kill. However, it's still hard to kill anything before they fly away. Only time this really works is with a dual ranger sunderer, which is amazing against air, but vulnerable to everything else once the air flies away. That's really the problem with AA on vehicles, it completely hinders your ability to deal with infantry and vehicles, only to help scare off air that comes your way.

    Tank turrets: The elevation makes it so pilots can bombard the vehicle with rockets without actually being in the angle of elevation of the tank. The tank cannot outrun air, nor can it fight back unless it manages to prop itself at an angle to compensate for the low turret elevation. Even then, its really simple for air to readjust and completely shred the defenseless vehicle. A2G rockets should not deal as much damage, or take longer to fire between bursts. Turret elevation should also be elevated to give tanks a better fighting chance.

    Skyguard: I kept this one for last, because I know everyone's go-to statement will be "pull a Skyguard". Yes, the Skyguard does a decent job against air, it can even chase down slow vehicles. However, it's the same problem as with all AA options: it's extremely not versatile. Air can basically deal with anything that comes their way. The Skyguard might be great at killing a liberator or two, but the pilots will simply re-spawn and avoid that area, as usually happens when G2A is pulled. The pilots simply retreat until the person is bored or gets killed by something, since AA is useless against anything. Then, the pilots come back and continue farming, or farm in short bursts if the AA persists.

    In short, AA is expensive, does not usually kill air -it serves more as a pathetic deterrent, and it renders the person manning AA completely useless. Why is it so easy for pilots to farm infantry and get away with it? Especially if they air an engineer, they do not even need auto repair thanks to the passive ability. Something really needs to be done to make the G2A combat more enjoyable and balance.

    I understand in real life, air wrecks basically anything, but they are still vulnerable to 1hk heat seekers or SAMs or even just flack. Even so, this is a game, it's not really meant to simulate real life mechanics, so there's no reason why air must be this powerful in in combined arms game.
    • Up x 4
  2. csvfr

    Well many G2A work pretty well actually as you also admit in a sense in the act of getting rid of air, not necessarily killing the pilot/crew. Any pilot who has completed the novice aircraft directives know to retreat if hit by flak, and if not it takes about 3-4 seconds to down an ESF and slightly longer for liberators. A burster MAX can effectively deny aircraft from farming and force them to repair alt. dodge fire and consequently make shorter, less effective sweeps from non-ideal angles rather than constantly hovering just above a fight/spawnroom. Lockons are admittedly less effective for the solo player but does dish out decent damage in groups, whereas in larger fights a lockon + some flak might very well secure the kill of an ESF pilot.
    • Up x 1
  3. Blam320

    I would accept a buff to lock-on launchers and base turrets.
  4. BrbImAFK

    I think you're missing the point. As far as DBG is concerned (I know they're RPG now, but I don't think new-RPG has commented on this issue), AA is operating *exactly* as designed. See, this is how it works :

    Infantry get weapons that kill other infantry.
    Infantry get weapons that kill vehicles.
    Infantry get weapons that *deter* air.

    Vehicles get weapons that kill infantry.
    Vehicles get weapons that kill other vehicles.
    Vehicles get weapons that *deter* air.

    Air gets weapons that kill all the things.

    I loved Wrel as a YTer, but this is what happens when YTers become developers, and bow before the ****-storm that is the internet comment boards. There's a *reason* all the airwhores scream so loudly whenever anybody suggests changing anything... and it's because if they scream loud enough, the devs seem to equate "loudness" with "proportion of the population" and bow to their wishes.
    • Up x 4
  5. Wadelma

    Valkyries melt in a heartbeat when facing AA from any source, I think they're pretty okay now. Survivability goes up if you have dedicated engis on rumble seats but that's already a decent manpower investment.

    But ESF feel way too resistant to damage now, I very much agree that standard rocket launchers should OHK an ESF. I don't know how they are now as I don't play HA anymore, but back in the early days it worked wonderfully to deter overly greedy ESF.
    Same goes for Liberator. Standard Flak AA just tickles them and they can easily retaliate and murder the source.

    That said air is pain in the clegg to balance. Buff G2A and not even small fights are doable not to mention anything bigger. Keep libs and such strong as they are and they remain as sky bullies to smaller fights. As far as I can see they screwed the pooch with libs not being bombers first and foremost, designed to get in and out but not be able to loiter for extended periods of time as they do now.
    As weak as shouldermounted G2A are, they're free and you can ask your friends to focus fire, usually enough to ward the enemy off.
    Against mass air it's really hard to get enough AA going so I've no idea how to go about that tbh... Either way, buff RL dmg vs air targets.
  6. Lord_Avatar

    The problem with AA is that it scales extraordinarily well. 1 lock-on launcher is a nuisance; three are an instagib. One Skyguard can deter air, two can melt anything that flies within their hex and a half.
    • Up x 3
  7. BrbImAFK

    1. Since the Skyguard accuracy nerf, the dude's gotta be no more than like 100-150m away for you to land any significant portion of your magazine on him no matter how good your aim.

    2. Scaling is not something that's balanced for in this game, so why should it apply here? That's like saying to a tank driver *****in' about libs "Oh well... sorry your 24-man armoured column got utterly cluster-nuked by 2 x 2-man vehicles but hey... libs scale really well, that's all." It's still ******** by any measure.
  8. Pikachu

    Which is an annoying design choice to sell more guns. AA guns could be given a cert that could be that allows them to switch to armor piercing rounds and shoot ground targets.

  9. Lord_Avatar

    Apples to oranges. I guess what I'm saying is that AA is perfectly capable of wasting air, people simply fail to organise themselves on a basic level.
  10. Exileant

    :D The Air weapons work just fine, you just have to learn what to do with what.

    ;) Burster Max, You need 2 of, the magazine Extender for both and the knowledge of your terrain. It is a weapon that is designed to kill planes that decide to attempt to stand their ground. The game has been around long enough for Fighter Pilots to attain the skill to fight a Max Head on with anything equipped. You will never avoid the power of the creative mind no matter how hard you try. If a pistol has the power to damage a tank, there will be some one out there who decides to make it a life mission to destroy a tank with that pistol. Which is why I find nerfing anything so pointless. Bursters are also quite well equipped at handling infantry save for H.A.'s and other Maxes. Proper cover is all you need.

    :confused: Turrets, had their year, at one time all people did was hop in a turret and drop aircraft even 2 bases over that no longer could be seen. o_O These are still effective for heavier slower targets that NEED to be run off swiftly, such as a Liberator or a Galaxy. You can even manage to bring down a fighter or two, if the pilot gets beside themselves and over commit to a target, or even better focus fire on you. This opens many door for you, Like popping out with a Locker and ending your conversation with one another, leaving you as the victor.

    ;) Lock On M.L. The same reason you all cried about the Flash weapons being too powerful alone should carry the same weight as to the reason Basic Lockers were crushed. They are not a resource user so they are free, and used to be able to demolish crowds of jets by themselves. :eek: Having a partner used to completely deny the air ways from anything. So now it is mainly to be used as a team weapon. Even so, If you are good enough, you will still drop a plenty by yourself. You do not start the attack with a missile, you end it with a missile.

    o_O Ranger and most specifically the Walker, are my top gun of choice. A steady handed user can devour any airborne vehicle. The trick is they need to be maxed out. The Walker, is for less experienced users when it comes to turret play. A pro infantry player will reward you with kill after kill, even if they are new to the game, so long as they are familiar with shooters. It can also easily double as an anti-infantry/weapon, it's only downfall is range which is easily taken care of by a second turret. Or even a Launcher, to end the conversation. ;) So run in pairs.

    :confused: Tank Turrets are Anti infantry and Ground Vehicle Bombardment weapons that can be used as first strike aerial assault platform. Take your shots while you can, and land a few. If it is something large enough to really kill you, landing those shots are critical, because when they get close, that is what your top gun is for. o_O They should not be able to take care of aircraft passed that point, given most can destroy a fighter in a single shot. :eek: Now if they introduce Machine Gun Main Turrets?!?!? Dust514 had them and they were amazing. So a type of rapid fire Basilisk would have me Glued to my Main Battle Tank.

    ;) Skyguard, just as you said, IT WORKS. o_O Skill angle prediction is directly related to what you can accomplish with this wonderful weapon. Getting used to shooting ahead of your targets at the proper distances is rather difficult to grasp, all it takes practice. :eek: And IT even doubles decently as close to mid-range anti-Infantry weaponry. Making it very rather well rounded, especially when dealing with infiltrators or worse... ;) Engineers that try to heal vehicles.
  11. BrbImAFK

    No, it *isn't* "apples to oranges".

    There are basically only 3 kinds of AA. Lockons, Bursters and vehicle-mounted weapons and pretty much all of the vehicle-mounted options are crap at anything but AA.

    You say "get coordinated" - but air vehicles don't have to "be coordinated" to rain terror on the ground below. In addition, given how many people play solo that restricts "get coordinated" to squad-players... and only *if* those squad-players have unlocked the relevant weapons. On top of that, most of the time the squad-players have better things to do than go to spawn, pull a buncha lockons etc. to counter an air-threat that'll piss off the second they actually do anything.

    That's the thing. Air vehicles have far too much mobility to be as tanky and as killy as they are. They're extra-killy, extra-mobile and extra-tanky. On the usual triangle of dmg / health / speed, they're maxed out on all three. Nothing else ingame even *approaches* that.

    Let's say, though, that I *do* pull a Skyguard. I've now spent 350 nanites. Same as your ESF. And yet your ESF can (if you're decently skilled) hang about over my head, shooting me at angles I can't lift my gun to. Or you can sit at range and nuke me from beyond the SG's effective range. Not to mention that you can easily just duck behind a mountain, pop out to empty your clip and dive back into cover. Or Hornets. Compared to the effectiveness of an ESF, a Skyguard is complete ********. A MAX is *more* expensive than an ESF... and will still die to one more often than not. And when I pull my Skyguard to kill your ESF and you piss of, *then* what am I gonna do with it? Sit on a hill, jerking off, waiting for some C4-fairy to visit? Isn't really much else to do. Not like I can follow you over all those mountains, hills, general terrain etc.

    But let's not just take my word (and common sense). Let's look at some actual stats (per Dasanfall) :

    Skyguard / Bursters / Lockons
    A. KPU : 252 / 151 / 280
    A. DPU : 88 / 160 / 418
    A. KDR : 2.86 / 0.9 / 0.7
    A. KPU X : 1,721 / 1,779 / 1,319
    A. DPU X : 486 / 1,188 / 1,439
    A. KDR X : 3.5 / 1.5 / 0.9

    A. KPH : 14 / 5.2 / 15.8
    A. VKPH : 9.4 / 3.5 / 9.9

    For ESF's, I picked the more common noseguns (Banshee, Airhammer, LPPA) and for the wing mounts I picked the standard lolpods. For Liberators I picked the most used weapon (Spur) and the infamous Dalton. I was tempted to pick the Zephyr (with it's 30+ A. KDRs - and name *any* other weapon with that sort of average KDR!) but the Dalton did appear to be more common.

    ESF Nose / ESF Wings / Lib Nose / Lib Belly:
    A. KPU : 1,078 / 768 / 586 / 662
    A. DPU : 235 / 117 / 84 / 92
    A. KDR : 4.6 / 6.6 / 7 / 7.2
    A. KPU X : 2,817 / 2,279 / 2,044 / 3,264
    A. DPU X : 449 / 270 / 101 / 375
    A. KDR X : 6.3 / 8.4 / 10.7 / 8.7

    A. KPH : 47 / 80 / 31.5 / 34.5
    A. VKPH : 3.7 / 15 / 2.7 / 24.4

    Now, if you can't see anything wrong with these numbers then, frankly, there's something wrong with *you* and there's no point even discussing this.
    • Up x 6
  12. Katshina

    the way i've alwasy seen AA is this.

    1 ESF vs 1 AA anything? a joke, it doesnt even deterr it
    2 ESF vs 2 AA anything? two players throwing dakka into the air can really deterr even two players, but rarely is more than a neusance
    3 ESF vs 3 AA anything? this is where things get interesting, basically any combiation of anti air capabilites of 3 players becomes very threatening, at almost any ranges, you dont want to send even a few esfs or two libs near them.
    4 ESF vs 4 AA anything? this is where the tables turn in AA's favor, HARD. something like 4 skygaurds or a skyguard + some rangers becomes an absolute nightmare, even a full squad rolling in with manned libs and ESFs can be taken down by a quartet of skyguards.

    From here on out it becomes nearly impossible for any number of air to breach a squad with coordinated AA, the platoons i run often field a full squad of AA whenever wwew get's ESF happy. and by god, a full platoon trying to aircrash us is met with so much dakka they can't even get within a kilometer.

    I dont know what you guys are getting at, AA, like archers & lancers, they are intentionally balanced in such a way to be too weak to function effectively solo, as if you guys got the AA buff you so sorely crave, air would become dead the moment a few players feilded AA.

    I think its fine as is, and this is coming from somone who doesn't fly much.

    i'll grant this, lockon G2A sucks. bad. it needs a buff, just make the lockon range much longer and lock on speed much faster, missiles are easy enough to dodge so i think this is a generally positive change
    • Up x 4
  13. rsonny

    In real life a ZSU Shilka etc kills infantry well. I suggest greatly increasing the Skyguard damage on infantry and may be vehicles. They will begin to be used much more often, thereby solving the problem of the absence of AA.
    • Up x 1
  14. OneShadowWarrior

    The fanboys complaining that they were not effective with air and died usually before they could react, caused a massive nerf of all the AA weapons for the sake of balance.

    What irks me about aircraft is they slammed the rendering distance, so they have no choice to be up close to acquire target, since optics, sights and detection equipment is archaic. So it is pretty annoying when they are 30 meters above you camping and nothing you do with AA works.
    • Up x 1
  15. Lord_Avatar

    Yeah, it is apples to oranges and here is why.

    I'm well familiar with the stats and they certainly don't lie; however - you yourself added that the problem with AA doesn't lie with its killing potential per se - it's that AA is only ever good at AA duty and nothing else, hence it is only ever pulled in a reactionary manner and the experience tends to be unrewarding at best, or more often outright boring.

    Air remains relatively rare when compared to ground vehicles (and - obviously - infantry) -> AA tends not to be present -> air gets free reign -> AA gets pulled -> air either dies, or leaves -> AA becomes useless, because air is relatively rare.

    As for people not getting organised - that would solve most problems PS2 has, but since the majority of people (PS2 players included) are muppets - it's not going to happen.

    To summarise - yes, the A2G / G2A relationship is out of whack. Making air less versatile, or AA *more* versatile would be one solution. Introducing effective "skill-based" AA would be another. It should also be pointed out, that us ground pounders already have the tools necessary to whack air out of the sky, but stubbornly refuse to use them, because the experience is unrewarding and/or we can't get our **** together.
    • Up x 1
  16. BrbImAFK

    It is *NOT* "apples to oranges" because when you bring your Banshee and lolpods, I have to fight you with bursters, skyguards or lockons.

    And when your Banshee and lolpods are turning out an AVERAGE KDR of 7-ish, and it's *direct counter* (or at least, what is meant to be it's direct counter) often struggles to break a KDR of ONE most of the time, there's something ******* wrong. Not recognising that is either too biased or too dumb to argue with. I'm done here.
    • Up x 1
  17. Lord_Avatar

    You didn't read past my first sentence, admit it.

    As intended, although technically all weaponry in the game can damage an ESF.

    While the effectiveness of the Banshee / lawlpawds is not being disputed, the KDR discrepancy mostly stems from two things: a). there is far more targets for air to engage and pad their stats on in relative safety, b). air is versatile, while AA is only effective at countering air which makes it very unattractive choice.

    Except it has been recognised, acknowledged and mostly addressed in my response, so... We're done here, aye? :cool:
  18. Bragg

    Lots of good points in this thread. Problem is greatest when small fights, ESF, Lib can totally destroy the fights, and there players who fly this things are searching these fights. Because they are easy prey. Why risk your precious KDR in large fights whre you can be shot down instantly when ground units get pissed off.

    ESF, Lib just roam around my looking activity map where they can have some prey to hunt. And this is the most annoying thing. And small squad cannot do anything to flying units, nobody isnt just willing to pull max or skyguard because air units just scramble to somewhere else, and return 5 - 10 min later. Infantry get more XP doing something else than deterring air with sad amounts of XP.

    Balance is complicated and there are lots of situation to consider is it balance or not. But players exploit the knowledge that they cannot be shot down, or more accurately devs dont allow air units to be shot down. (And air event is just glorified free air units to these players. Good thing they are now going to be removed)

    And then we come to the conclusion, are these units balanced. No, because players just exploit the knowledge that they cannot be shot down, only deterred. And that is totally wrong.

    Some observations, which i think many will agree.

    Best MBT = Liberator
    Best AA = AP Lighting tank (considering cost vs damage, of course any MBT works also. 1 hit, 1 kill to ESF.)
    • Up x 1
  19. PlanetBound

    TRspy007 covered it.
    • Up x 2
  20. TRspy007

    Thank you. (He's prolly a tryhard pilot).
    • Up x 1

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