When Libs are no more, tanks will be abundant...

When I fly a Liberator, I do 3 things...

• I keep my eye out for other good Lib crews
• I find hover spamming Liberators and kill them
• I tanks spawn camping bases and kill them

I guess I really don't know what everyone else does in their Lib as there seems to be some confusion going on right now between those of us that fly Liberators all the time (and get called names because we're good at it), people that don't fly Liberators that think they are OP, and those that don't post on the forums and don't play because they got farmed by a Liberator.

If you nerf the Liberator into the ground, it doesn't matter what you do to tanks, you will see A LOT more of them on the battlefield and things will get MUCH worse. Liberators aren't the issue here...Liberators are what's keeping tank spam from being far worse than it already is.

Of the top 5 guys in the Liberator and Prowler using their Primary Weapon (Tank Buster and Main Gun)

The average KDR of the Lib Pilots is 5:1
The average KDR of the Prowler Drivers is 33:1

So tankers are 7x more effective at killing people than Liberators.

If you nerf Libs into the ground so people don't fly them anymore because they are useless, this will become Tankside 2.


That being said...the Liberator does have some OP qualities that need to be nerfed:

• Belly Gun Ammo is too high, all of the ammo upgrades need to be cut in half
• Revert the MBT main gun damage so they hit harder. This was a bad change initially.
• Liberators need to be louder (unless you're running stealth
• Dalton needs a SLIGHT nerf to infantry splash damage (10%)
• Shredder needs a nerf vs Max Suits (really OP currently)

Those of us that fly Liberators and are very good at it want the Air and Ground game to be balanced, we don't want to be OP and we want skill to prevail over cheese.

Liberators are very easy to kill when working together. 3 guys on the ground have the advantage over 3 guys in a Liberator. The problem is that AA isn't fun. AA isn't engaging, it's boring, and it just boils down to being a serious lack of fun.

The issue isn't that AA isn't effective, because used correctly it's DEADLY. The problem is that AA isn't fun. If a Skyguard could change out its barrels at an ammo tower, you'd see a lot more of them and they would be more fun. Or heck, just give people the ability to deconstruct them and get some resources back to pull another one (now that you can pull them anywhere)


TL;DR - Don't nerf Dalton velocity & don't nerf the Tank Buster or this will turn into Tankside 2.

Misdirect harder

With less Liberators you also have more AV tanks.

Also... you don't measure killing power in K/D. You measure it in KPH. In such a case, Liberators easily win.

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That all being said, the velocities of the current weapons don't need nerfed. The Tankbuster needs looked at, but it doesn't need to be Vektor levels. What you said here makes perfect sense:

Although, you totally ruin it earlier in your post.

The difference is that fighting against tanks as an infantry can actually be fun and enjoyable and you can do it while focusing on other targets too, like infantry. Liberators are just random annoyance that ruins majority of good fights and are really annoying for infantry to deal with and they are also boring as hell to fight against, because they just keep coming back when you force them away.

Its like being a bouncer on bar, while other people are having fun, you are just watching them and keeping away the random guys that may cause trouble.

This.

Fighting against big tank zergs can be tons of fun and net you loads of certs. Whether its by planting mines, C4, flanking them with your tank etc, its fun and rewarding. Sooner or later that enemy zerg will stumble to your tank zerg resulting an epic fight.

In many bases tanks cant either do anything to the infantry inside or have fairly small effect for the defenders as they have enough cover to avoid being shelled by tanks. Also tank zergs move slowly and often quite predictable so arraging a counter push or flank to wipe them all is not that big of a deal.

Now lets look at the Lib then. Fighting against them from the ground is the opposite. Its not fun and definately its not rewarding as getting kills doesn't happen very often. What usually happens is that you get a good amount of damage in only to see them fly away and soon return with full HP.

Lately instead of big tank zergs I have seen big air zergs. When you get 5-10 libs coming at you covered by ESF's and Galaxies what can you really do? They can immediately shell every skyguard on sight and kill all burster maxes and heavies who aren't close to the spawn room. The fight is over within minutes and after that its just tons of Libs bombing the spawn room until base flips.

If by some miracle there is enough AA to deal with a force like that they can just fly away and attack another base. Tanks cant often do that or it will take them forever to get somewhere else.

Good thing they're nerfing tanks too, right?



Right?

I'm sorry, but this is such BS. First off, KDR is a pointless metric. Secondly, you REALLY just stated that tanks are way more effective than libs based on comparing it to the TB only? ******* really?

Shredder KPH: 38
Shredder vKPH: 14.3

FPC KPH: 18.5
FPC vKPH: 13.3

VPC KPH: 33.3
VPC vKPH: 3.7

Average values from DA. The shredder deserves every bit of the nerf that's coming for it. It outperforms dedicated AP weapons at killing vehicles and dedicated anti-infantry weapons at killing infantry and that simply isn't ok.

Also, Libs have been severely impacting tanking in the last few months. Doing anything away from the zerg has been almost impossible and it's extremely frustrating. Tell me, where does my skill come into play when i'm getting ganked within a second by a lib with a TB even though I had a freaking skyguard with me. I guess it's all in evading the first TB burst, right? Problem is, i'll still die 5 seconds later anyway.

Nerfing libs isn't going to cause tankside, but it's going to allow tanks to start playing again in non-stupid ways. It's going to allow us to do more of the tank-killing again, instead of having it all in the domain of the lib. This nerf is going ti improve things for pretty much everyone except people who won't adapt to more specialised weapons on libs.

No you find all tanks and kill them without any recourse from their hapless pilots, dont pretend like your doing some service by killing infantry farmers. I wish you would let all your pals know not to kill my mag when I am flanking those same MBTs who are camping spawn rooms.

This is a nonsensical stat not sure what you hope to show with this one

With many ammo upgrades my FPC comes with 42 rounds, and when I run out I need to drive for 2-5 minutes to find an ammo tower (no friendly ammo sundys make me cry). Would it be so ridiculous to suggest that the dalton stock ammo reserve should be just as small when the liberator is faster and can resupply much easier? Why do they get so many rounds to spam?

Counters to tanks that can kill them or keep them at bay with some relative TTKs-

Combined dumbfire launchers (probably 10 seconds to kill if not coordinated)
faction specific launchers (Likewise around 10 seconds with some exceptions, but much more difficult to avoid)
Other tanks, Light tanks, Sunderers with AV and harassers with AV (Ranging from 11 second TTK to 40)
C4 (Can be instant to about 8 sec TTK with C4-rocket combo)
tank mines (can often be instant)
AV max (4 sec ttk, near 0 if multiple and/or locked down)
Libs and ESF's (Ranging from near instant with TB/Dalton combo to 10-40+ seconds depending on loadout)


Things that can kill a liberator with some relative TTK's
ESF's (30+ second TTK due to having to fire, reload, fire with nosegun. Can be 10 or so with rocket pod secondary and switching)
Another Liberator ( near instant with TB or very quickly with AV or shredder, almost instantaneous if combined)
Combined Flak with at least 3 skyguards or maxes. 2 locked down TR maxes can put the hurt on. 3 base turrets. (5-20 seconds with Composite and/or FS)


It should be noted that technically speaking, a single skyguard, max, heavy with lockon launcher can theoretically kill a liberator. Is it going to happen? Not with any semi-competent pilot.
What is there to learn from this? There are numerous hard counters and soft counters to tanks. A handful of soft counters to liberators unless you get very creative (And lucky).

I'll take tanks any day of the week, thanks.

TB is the only one A2G AV weapons that gonna be nerfed...

The velocity nerf won't impact the AT role of the lib that much.

Also your KDR comparaison is funny since MBT is the main gun gunner.
What would be pilot+gunner K/pilot+gunner death ratio? Much higher for the lib i bet.

Without mentionning that zepher have the same (if not better) VKPH than AP tank gun.

With actual XP sharing system; even libs pilots earn more than tanks pilots that have to piloting & gunning at the same time.

Cry Bring more reavers please.

Fly with friendly AA aircrafts or close to friendly flak and you'll be able to eat tanks/infatries as easily than before.
It's what tanks does since the launch.

More tanks focused on killing each other?

I'll keep pulling Harassers. Tank main guns getting nerfed + Harassers unchanged = Better chances at Harassing.

Without statistical references, I never believe anything anyone says. So I got the data for you. (You're wrong btw)

Averages based on the Top 10 killers in each category.

Liberator Tank Buster:
Average Kills: 8,169
Average KPH: 17.49
Average VKPH: 20.28
Average SPM: 287

Prowler Main Gun (AP, HE, HEAT)
Average Kills: 16,255
Average KPH: 68
Average VKPH: 16
Average SPM: 391

Actually, looks like Prowlers win by a large margin.

Average Kills: 98.98% better than Liberators
Average KPH: 288% better than Liberators
Average VKPH: 28% better than Liberators (Only using AP)
Average SPM: 36% better than Liberators


I'm not making this stuff up:

Not going to comment on your whole post but your KPH and vKPH seems flawed. Shredder requires 2 people to effectively use, there might be 10 people in the whole game who solo Shredder. I have played on all 3 NA Servers and have seen it used once effectively in 65 days play time. Both the FPC and VPC can be used effectively by one person. Your comparison would need to pick the most common secondary say the Halberd and add those stats in while adding the Tankbuster stats to the Shredder for a comparison.

Not disagreeing with your topic overall, but KDR of a Prowler Driver should be compared to a Liberators Gunner, not Pilot. You showcased a bad comparison. Bad Dreadnaut, bad. Now go to Skygod "time-out".

Sure, let's compare an AV weapon (that isn't even supposed to be the main gun), with an average of AV+AI+jack-of-all-trades main guns, numbers will tell the ULTIMATE TRUTH™!

totally forgot liberator is a solo aircraft. it must suck only ever having the tank buster to use.

I'm comparing Pilot to Driver. I could surely add in the top 10 secondaries but it wouldn't make much sense as a whole, they would have to be done by faction.

I'm primarily a solo Lib pilot, and I rarely ever switch seats. The comparison is fair.

Compare MBT secondary to belly gun then.
And add on the ability to either use another gunner or let the belly gunner swap seats, something the MBT can't do.

it's ok because now the tank buster will be a tank deterrent.

good luck!

Top 10: (Average of the 10 best in each category)

Dalton Gunner KPH: 61.27
Dalton Gunner VKPH: 30.95

Prowler Gunner KPH: 68 (Average of AP, HE, HEAT) (10% better than Liberators)
Prowler Gunner VKPH: 26 (P2-120 AP - For Armor) (16% worse than Liberators)


Evaluation:
Prowlers are doing more killing in total, Liberators do slightly more Armor killing.

Liberators are by no means out performing the best MBT in the game for killing.