VS have it worse than the NC - TR doesn't get any real attention anymore.

A coordinated zerg will beat a headless one, that's more or less the point I was making. Or more commonly, organized squads hidden in a zerg.

But yea 20 guy aren't gonna do much to a 100 man army in most cases.

It will take me a little while to find this, Higby said it somewhere, I will suply a source by end of day.

Mmm, found it; http://reachcastshow.com/planetside-2/podcast/episode-86 about 36 to 38 minutes in (this isn't exactly where I remember seeing/hearing it, but it's close enough to do for now).

I highly recommend listening to that whole ReachCast episode, really freaking informative.

Compares directly? Well, no but tanks are balanced holistically and the stats I'm looking at are holistic, aggregate stats. So it doesn't matter if the Magburner isn't comparable to Shield, because the aggregate stats show that the overall capability of one tank is nearly identical to the other. That's what matters.

The tank brawl is an example of totally different balance rules, so doesn't seem relevant to a conversation on existing tank balance (especially since it was held specifically to tweak those new rules.)

Actually, it is still a problem.
If nothing else the test showed that the magrider is in need of something that -strongly- defines it's strength in a fight.
Currently, the Magburner and octo-directional movement/hovering doesn't actually compare favourable to the power and speed of the prowler, or the durability and high velocity gun on the vanguard.
I'm not saying it's a worthless set of perks (on the mag), but they are lacking.

Moreover, you say the mag and vanguard are relatively close, yet how much of that is down to the PPA I wonder (or the lack of decent AI on the Van)?

First I admit my VS character is my least played.

Now here is what I see as issues with the VS when I play them, though my points maybe completely invalid.

First issue while they have some real gems in there arsenal (Orion for example) that allow them to stay very competitive, they also seem/feel like they have the most guns that just aren't worth using. My NC I can pick my poison, they almost all feel like sidegrades with different strengths and weaknesses, TR not quite as good as NC but still a lot of good guns and it works out okay, VS though there's just so many guns that just don't feel like it's worth using, the good ones are very good, but the bad ones yeah. So while they can get the job done with the good weapons they have it feels like they are being sold short diversity wise.

The other issue is the VS traits are just odd. NC slow firing and hard hitting overall makes sense, TR fast firing, but less damage per shot, also a few more bullets again makes sense and those two can be fairly well balanced against each other. VS though, no bullet drop and movement, that's just asking for trouble, it's going to either be ridiculously good, or horribly bad. How do you balance something properly like that across the board?

Sure, but what other weapon can provide complete armor denial out to render distance within LOS when it reaches that "enough players to be good" threshold?

AV turret.

I still have no idea why the GD-7F is an NC weapon to be honest...just seems like a cop-out. It's not in-keeping with the faction traits, and pretty much openly ***** on the TR faction traits. One faction should not have the hardest hitting weapon AND the fastest firing weapon.

And I'm an NC player.

True, but that is faction neutral, had it's range nerfed, and is often impossible to set up exactly where you need it, much less 4-5 of them.

The stats have been this way quite a long time (long before the recent jolt of PPA popularity), so they're not strongly related to the PPA even though they may include it in the stats.

Tanks don't necessarily need a singular thing that defines their strength. All that matters is they achieve holistic balance within the necessary roles they perform. Magriders are comparable with Vanguards not based on a Shield vs. Magburner comparison, but due to the overall capabilities of each tank.

And my point is every faction can destroy vehicles before they react to render distance. And AV turrets range is 450 still outside infantry render distance.

I don't know I feel like a Lancer Squad is far more powerful at armor denial and destruction than an AV Turret, that weapon is absolutely nasty, it's a lot easier to get HA set in the right spot and off angles than it is the AV turret. Not to mention the same Lancer Squad can do decently against air.

So can any other heavy with lock ons.

I don't know what his shoes are made of but it's ******* nasty for the grass.

Ok now your mixing roles, my point is you have a lancer squad denying armor an area, which they can do very effectively and they can shoot from more areas than the turret cause the turret has to be placed in right area to work, someone decides to send a lib to wipe them out, that same lancer squad can (if they are paying attention and are even half decent shots) wipe out the lib as well, the engineers would be helpless.

My only point is the Lancer, like the Phoenix, is a very unique and useful weapon and can be very effective in the right place, it's situational like all the ES launchers, but it's very good at what it does, the biggest odd one out is the striker which is the least unique of the three and basically does the same job as the annihilator.

I would trade our lasher for your jackhammer. I would rather have a gun that kills. Not one that specializes in assists and team killing.

Honestly I can understand your feelings on this one, but I personally would take you up on this, I know most NC would hate me and most VS would laugh at me but at the end of the day, if I'm pulling the Jackhammer I could probably do the same or similar job with most other shotguns, JH would be more efficient, but not by so much that I would care, cause in the end it's a shotgun.

The lasher though I could think of situations where I would rather have that niche weapon that does what nothing else can do, it is much more limited than either the JH or the MCG on where it excels but still in those certain point hold situations it can be brutal, and if the proposed buff I keep hearing about goes live it's going to be even better.

It needs to be as useful in the same amount of situations as the jackhammer and MCG for it to be balanced.

I beg to differ. I, for one, am a fan of assymetrical balance.

Go play Renegade X, for example. The balance is fantastic, and yet both sides share very few units and vehicles.