Vanu LMGs (save certs?)

Discussion in 'Heavy Assault' started by NoxiousCuz, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. Kozmyk

    I got the Flare but I was disappointed with it so I've gone back to the SV-88; came as an Alpha Squad bonus weapon.
    I used the Pulsar LSW a lot in Beta but I haven't tried it post release due to the fact that is was one of the cheaper options which I translated to mean less good, perhaps mistakenly.
    The differences between weapons appear arbitrary and situational.
    Ways to encourage us to spend more on Station Cash ;^)
  2. Cheerilee

    Kozmyk, what was so disappointing with it?
    And yeh, you are right, its situational. The flare really sucks in "sniping". Thats why i always try to get close to my enemie :>
    Oh and iam using IRNV scope...cant see anything on long range, but rocks at CQC XD
  3. Aerius

    Orion. By far the best CQB HA weapon and decent at a distance, the Flare being good at distance and horrible in CQB.

    Apparently it still shows as turned on for enemies, so turning it off is just a disadvantage.
  4. Cheerilee

    How can the orion be the best CQC with that little clip at that little dmg per round?
    I mean, do you mean CQC with cover or without cover?
    In CQC where the enmies are not watching at your direction you will be able to kill max 3 ppls before reload and then you don't have the supriseeffect anymore. With the flare you are able to kill more. So, why is the flare horrible in CQC? Or do you only use hipfire?
  5. Erendil

    I'd wondered if that was the case since it was like that briefly in Beta, but I don't recall ever seeing any enemies showing that laser post-launch, but I have seen a few friendlies. I'll have to test it out w/ some outfit mates.

    The Flare is subpar due to low damage output over time. The Orion is the best because it throws those little bullets down range at a very high rate. It has the highest damage output over time, thus the fastest TTK.

    It's like a teenage boy on prom night. It empties its mag really fast and makes a mess of everything in front of it while doing so... :p
  6. Cheerilee

    But TTK isn't everything. Maybe you are faster in killing, but with the flare you can kill more.
    And is 10 m realistic? I really don't know how much 10 m are ingame.
    But ok, lets say, we always have the maxdmg situation (so softpoint doesn't get an advantage)
    I read, that we got 500 shield and 500 health...1000 effective
    With orion you need 0,56 s to kill an enemie. With the Orion you are able to shoot 4 secs (60 secs / (750 rpm / 50 ammo per clip)) Means, you can kill a maximum of 7,14 enemies with one clip.
    With flare you need 0,63 s to kill an enemie. With the flare you are able to shoot 7,88 secs. (60 secs / (571 rpm /75 ammo per clip))
    Means, you can kill a maximum of 12,51 enemies with one clip.
    So the TTK of the Orion is 11,11 % faster. But at its cost.
    I know, its unrealistic, because not each bullet hits. But its just theory :>
    If anyone wants to complain about the recoil...on 10 Meters, recoil doesn't matter that much i think. And on higher range the softpointammo helps out :)
    So i think, its not "what is better"...its more "what do you prefer?" Iam good at aiming so i prefer to be able to kill more ppls before the countdown to pants down ended :)
    But saying the flare isn't good at QCQ...i don't think thats right. its only 0,07 secs diffrence
  7. Curze

    LSW all the way, same rpm clip size and damage as the SVA-88, less recoil, lower reload. its a straight upgrade of the SVA
    2x scope + grip and your ready to go
  8. Erendil

    Good stats there, although you might want to recalculate since the first bullet is at t=0s so it doesn't add to the TTK of the weapon. It's essentially "free" temporally-speaking. :cool:

    I agree with you. All of the VS LMGs are pretty similar in terms of damage output and accuracy so we're really splitting hairs here.
    I hadn't realized the TTK variation was so small tho. That would explain why the more I play the more I find myself using the SVA88 over the Orion even when going into a CQC situation and even tho it's TTK is longer simply because it is a more versatile weapon than the Orion (bigger mag, more accurate at range, greater selection of attachments).

    However, statistically-speaking the Orion is still technically the "best" LMG at CQC because of the faster TTK and because at CQC distance (let's say for the sake of this argument it's 15m. For reference that's half the length of the spawn room in our warpgates) the accuracy differences between the different LMGs mean very little since they are all accurate enough to hit 100% of their shots at that distance anyway. So it comes down to player skill. And in that case, characters in PS2 move slow enough that there are players who can hit 100% of their shots in CQC during most of their encounters, and if they do land all of their shots and are using a weapon with a faster TTK they will win 100% of the time, all else being equal.

    In addition, statistically-speaking most people aren't skillful enough to kill more than 2-3 people without dying themselves anyway, so that Orion's 50-round battery is sufficient for their needs the vast majority of the time.

    All of that said, I think I might have to try out the Flare again since its CQC ability isn't that much worse on paper, but it does do more damage per shot than the other LMGs 100% of the time......
  9. Erendil

    Actually look at this doc:

    According to it the LSW has a worse recoil than the SVA-88, at least on the first shot, which is exacerbated by the fact that the compensator is available on the SVA-88 but not the LSW. Plus, the LSW's recoil is harder to adjust for since it pulls to the right whereas the SVA-88 is straight up and down. And the LSW has a larger hipfire CoF while on the move, a slower footspeed during ADS, and a lower muzzle velocity exacerbated (yes, I like that word) by the lack of HV ammo. Lastly, it has fewer attachments available to it (no 6x, compensator, or HV ammo, although it does have a flash suppressor which is missing from the SVA's list).

    So no, it's not a straight upgrade of the SVA. It looks like it might be a little better at mid-range, whereas the SVA-88 appears to have the edge at close- and long-range. They're both very close tho.
  10. Trysaeder

    Probably isn't worth it. I don't know exactly how much the Flare is (250?), but usually the price of weapons can pay for a large portion of your class' cert upgrades. Level 3 medkits, resist/adrenaline/basic shield and weapon optics are all nice upgrades.
  11. Inviso

    That is where you are wrong.

    Sure, the LSW has more recoil, ON THE FIRST SHOT.

    After that, the recoil is less for every successive shot. And the recoil on it only pulls up and to the right, whereas the SVA-88 Has more successive recoil, and pulls up, and to the left or right randomly.

    Also, the LSW has a smaller COF when moving while ADS, which is where you want it. The SVA-88 has a smaller cof when moving while hipfiring, but comon, hipfiring is for noobs.

    Short story:

    LSW has
    Less Recoil
    More predictable shot placement
    Smaller COF when ADS.
    Faster Reloads.
  12. grin

  13. velourfog

    Just stick with the orion. I can kill people with the 1x holo scope from medium range no problem, and it kills faster than any other LMG at close range. The ONLY downside to the gun is the smaller clip, but if you practice aiming for the head and reloading at the right time, it's negligible.

    For those times when you walk into a room and find 3 enemies, there's no better LMG to have than the orion. TTK is everything against multiple targets, especially if they're better than the average fodder. The faster you kill them, the less bullets you'll take. If you're really worried about needing to kill 5 people with a single clip, think of it this way. If you kill 5 people all at once, they probably sucked. You could have killed them just as fast with the orion and a pistol. If you run into 1 really good player, you need to kill him faster than he kills you. The orion will do that better than any other LMG.
  14. Whargoul

    Yeah man Orion is best no doubt the best on paper if you do all your fights at 10m and hold down the trigger, hit every shot, and make all body hits.
  15. Lavalampe

    This weekend is double xp. Maybe it will help you ;)

    Btw, i trialed the Flare today and it's not my kind of weapon. I killed a few enemies with it, but i never had a situation where i thought: "If I had extended magazines i would kill the other guys too" . It's a bit to slow and inaccurate for me. I think i will play a bit more with the Orion these days. It's a accurate beast even if it leaks those 25 bullets.
  16. Kyutaru

    Actually it's also the best if you go up to 75m, missing 71% of your shots, and spamming fullauto only. Granted headshots and burst fire can change what weapon hits the top of your list. The real reason to use the Orion is that it works better while moving and shooting, which 90% of infantry already does. Might as well not suck at it!
  17. Erendil

    I said quite clearly that the SVA-88 only had a smaller recoil on the first shot. And all automatic weapons have a random left/right play to their shots, including the LSW. Just slap a 4x scope on one and fire a few bursts at a distance target and you'll see it when you observe the impacts. That play is a little smaller on the LSW during ADS, but larger during hipfire.

    Plus the LSW's smaller ADS CoF is only truly more beneficial at long range (>100m or so) since both LMGs are accurate enough during ADS to land 100% of your shots out to 100m easy. But the SVA-88 has a faster muzzle velocity, as well as both a 6x scope and HV ammo available to it whereas the LSW does not, so a tricked out SVA-88 will still oftentimes be a better performer during long range firefights.

    And the SVA-88's smaller hipfire CoF when moving is where you want it during CQC, If I put a laser sight on the SVA-88 I can hit 100% of my hipfire shots out to 15m, and 90% out to 20m. That covers all but the largest building interiors. On top of that I'm a harder target to hit while doing so because I'll obviously be moving about and not slowed to a crawl like I would be during ADS. And even if I do ADS I can still move 50% faster than if I used the LSW, again making myself a harder target. I'm sorry but the only thing that is for noobs is insisting on using ADS for 100% of your encounters when there are many times hipfiring can let you land just as many shots while making yourself harder to hit. :p

    So, here's my Short rebuttal:

    SVA-88 has
    Greater vertical recoil, but smaller horizontal recoil
    No pull to the right so its recoil is easier for your average player to adjust to
    More predictable shot placement during hipfire
    Smaller CoF during hipfire
    Faster footspeed during ADS
    Higher default muzzle velocity
    Equal or better long range ability since its HV ammo and 6x scope trumps the LSW's barely-smaller ADS CoF

    So no, I'm not wrong. And the LSW is not a straight upgrade of the SVA-88. But this is not a contest. They are both good weapons, and each one has its strengths and weaknesses.
  18. Whargoul

    AHAHAHA! Yeah, sure man.
  19. Kyutaru

    TTKs based upon fullauto fire at long ranges with 29% skill assumption

    Weapon Data sheet ripped straight from the game files

    Stats of the Orion vs other VS LMGs:
    - The Orion has the best COF while moving in every category (0.35 while standing ADS, 0.15 while crouching ADS, 3 while stand hipfiring, 2.5 while crouch hipfiring). The Polaris and Pulsar equal it in each category except standing hipfire, the SVA-88 is worse in each category except equaling it in standing hipfire, and the Flare is worse while standing in both ADS and hipfire (it's better when standing STILL but also has a higher COF bloom rate).
    - The Orion is the only one with 750rpm, with the next best being 698rpm and the worst being the Flare with 571rpm (makes up for it with higher base damage).
    - The Orion has the fastest reload speed of all the LMGs at 2.8 seconds while having a smaller clip to balance it, so you are less likely to be caught with your pants down reloading.
    - The Orion (and the SVA-88) are the only LMGs -IN THE GAME- that have a 0.75 multiplier for ADS move speed, so the Vanu exclusively have the rights to using ADS mode while not moving at half speed.

    Essentially, the Flare being good at standing and shooting while still with a higher base damage is less affected by damage falloff and is for long range marksmanship. The SVA-88 has the same movement bonus as the Orion, equal in hipfire, and is better while sprinting but at the cost of lower ROF, higher recoil, and being less accurate with ADS (it's a pure hipfire weapon). The Polaris and Pulsar are basically the same weapon with different reload/ammo amounts and attachment availability and their good recoil and overall average stats make them average midrange weapons. Finally, the Orion, as I said in my post, works better while moving and shooting, which 90% of infantry already does. Might as well not suck at it!

    LOL learn your gun stats. The ADS speed bonus, high ROF, and accuracy while moving is what makes the Orion a good weapon. Enemies are most often encountered while you are moving unless you are camping a spawn door.
    • Up x 1
  20. Inviso

    Get within 20 kills/hour of where I am and I will find your arguments valid.

    Hipfiring is for noobs. I kill 9/10 that try to engage at close range and start hip firing.

    Lasersights and High Velocity is also a waste of certs.

    All you need for every gun ever is a foregrip and reflex/IRNV.

    Don't get me wrong, I used to love the SVA-88. I used it for the first week of launch. I got thousands of kills with it.

    But the LSW is still a better weapon. And in large firefights the small drawbacks it has are totally made up for with the faster reload speeds.

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