Vanguard Versus Prowler TTK

Ah, this thread again.

Theoretical DPS means nothing, as there are too many factors in a live game environment that cannot be considered in a formula.

Stick with plain tank K/D statistics to get the most accurate representation of balance that non-live gameplay data can provide.

I'm already happy they are working on resolving the Prowler lack of gunners issue by making the secondary weapons more fun and synergise better with deploy mode, as fun-factor is arguably one of the harder tank balance subjects to resolve.

Oh yes it is, very much. First, sometimes my halberd gunner for some reason gets hits on deployed sundies far away from me and i can't find that perfect pixel on the screen i need to aim at. By the time i manage to hit it, it's already dead. This is probably due to recoil - prowler's gun shakes and changes aim upward a bit with every shot, and halberd can just shoot. Second, when you need a dedicated anti-tank MBT, being locked down isn't a panacea. You really need that extra damage, especially since burst fire is very important, not just dps. Third, vanguard shield.

I agree that it doesn't FEEL like a secondary gunner is necessary on the Prowler, but that is most likely because most people using a Prowler have never had the joy of sharing the company of a very experienced gunner, who knows how to help keep the tank alive. Most people (which aren't that competent drivers to begin with) will just be put off by the random gunners that blow your cover, waste your ammo, etc etc, and don't feel like they get anything in return (because most random gunners DON'T give much in return). They will see they can kill other br1's from a long distance alone, and will then be likely to swear off random gunners.

I've had the pleasure of having dedicated gunners for much of my play-time in tanks, and it is an entirely different experience, not only in the Vanguard/Magrider, as I'm sure you would agree upon, but also for the Prowler.

Saron outclasses the Halberd? Since when? You make it seem like it trumps the Halberd in every aspect of AV work, which is far, far from true. A bit one-sided there in my opinion.

Sure, the TR player is biased, but the NC player saying TR are better off in 1/2 tanks than in one 2/2 tank is not biased at all, and does not imply that there is only one way to use the Prowler to its maximum effect I can see you haven't been a part of a competent Prowler crew for you to claim such things. I would rather have my gunner WITH me than in his own tank, every single time, except if I'm sitting 600m from a battle only killing br1's (which has no effect on the outcome of the battle & doesn't really help your faction). Even something as simple as the double repairs, can be the meaning between life and death, but I guess you just assume all Prowlers park 600m off in the distance. But I'm sure a lot of people trying out the Prowler for the first time thinks its awesome

Also, fighting with mobility in the Prowler is much harder than doing the same in the Vanguard (or, obviously, the Magrider), simply because you have to keep your crosshairs in the correct position (elevation, lead, etc etc) for a much higher percent of the time compared to the Vanguard/Magrider. This isn't the only factor, but it is quite significant. This gives you less time to maneuver around between reloads, and this gives you less situational awareness. After every single shot in the Vanguard I can easily swoop my turret at LEAST 180 degrees, and usually 360 degrees, assuming I'm not leading targets 500m away (which I very rarely do). Another aspect of this, is that the gunner of the Prowler takes on a more Magrider-gunner-esque role, in that the Prowler driver has to focus more of his attention on the enemies whilst firing, while the Halberd can make the 360 degree swoops between reloads easily.

Speaking on fun factor, where is the fun factor for the Vanguard?

Both Prowler and Magrider have built-in uniqueness that affects how you can play. Prowler has 2 barrels and Magrider has omnidirectional movement. Vanguard has... oh right, Vanguard is just a regular tank with a little more armor. Effective? Maybe (most performance stats would say otherwise), but certain not fun or interesting when playing with the Vanguard.

On top of that, both Prowler and Magrider have ES abilities that are fun and has an impact on how the tanks handle and play. Prowler lock-down increases ROF and reload, making for the best artillery in the game (the only thing tanks really shine at IMO) and forces you to think about when to lock-down, when to abort, etc. Although lock-down does not have synergy with the base Prowler speed, it does have synergy with the double-barrel aspect because it allows you to heave a lot of lead down field in a short amount of time and makes it easier to dial in on a target. Magrider has boost and this has synergy with the Magrider's mobility- it allows for Magriders to maneuver unlike any other tank, get into interesting places more easily, saves time getting one from where it is pulled to the fight, and is fun to use just messing around and seeing what kind of things you can get the tank to do.

Vanguard has push-button extra HP for a short period of time with a cool down. True, it increases survivability a bit (how much more than MAX fire suppression I'm not sure) but it is effectively the same as fire suppression (all vehicles have this), is little different from all the other shields in the game available to all factions (from HAs to Sunderer's now), and has zero impact on the performance of the tank other than a brief increase in HP. In short, it may be effective but it is hardly fun or interesting.

Oh, and Vanguard has bad performance stats (since release) as well. So, not only is it the least unique and most boring tank in the game it also tends to perform the worst.

I agree there are some things about the Prowler that could be improved- I was among those championing changes to the Vulcan for quite some time- but I think the Vanguard needs attention as well.

It's the best anti-tank tank in game. AP, Enforcer, stealth, racer, shield = you can go and hunt anything you like, and it's very very fun (i had and probably still have fully certed vanguard on russian server since they were giving out certs to high brs on eu and i needed to know how vanguards feel inside). I mean, seriously.

Sure, magrider is unique and very fun, nothing against that. But prowler? 2 guns give you fun? Not relly, they give you annoyance. Lockdown is fun? Well, it used to be fun before nerf, carefully positioning yourself after getting to some mountain could be pretty rewarding. Now, well, it's not something that unique, it's basically just "you need to stand in one place to be effective". Okay... i guess? Very fun.

Oh no, not at all. Ever wondered why people called it the "i win" button? It's nothing like fire supression, it's the "oh i got flanked, better press the button and kill the enemy tank first". I guess it's not really that fun to use, but it's extremely frustrating when it's used against you. Some interesting and "fun" ability instead of this shield could be nice i guess, but it's not going to happen. Also, i guess fun by your definition is something that isn't necessarily effective but hard to do and has both advantages and disadvantages. In that case, yeah, van's shield is not fun, it only has advantages, and the only thing one had to think about - the cooldown - will now be shown on hud so that poor hohols wouldn't have to overuse their brains.

On the fun factor, I would have to agree with Huishe, I don't find it "more fun" to have to fire 2 barrels, as opposed to only 1. It is a lot more taxing using them to their maximum effect, as it requires increased amounts of attention on the target, while you are also required to maintain situational awareness. Furthermore, the play-style Anchor implies is not something I find very fun either, namely sitting 600m from a battle and shelling away, only killing less than competent enemies. Yes, Anchor can also be used in closer range, but it gets riskier and riskier the closer you get. I prefer adrenaline-pumping battles, between competent tank crews, or going neck-deep in the depths of hell, so to speak, in taking out enemy Sundies and the likes. Or the sneaking up on enemy tanks, and taking out a group of tanks from behind.

I find the Vanguards single-shot cannon to be much more pleasant to use as it frees up my attention to focus on other things than firing, giving me more awareness of the overall battlefield, and superior mobility whilst firing, compared to the double-shot cannon. The Shield also complements the riskier play-style much more than Anchor does at least, and enables you to do some pretty crazy things still (not as crazy as before the nerf, but still!). I don't find the simple notion of "firing more lead down-range" to be fun in itself, far from it.

Note, everyone defines their own sense of what is "fun" for them, which is all I'm going at here.

Yeah, I get that people have different ideas of "fun".

Still, lets look at something here:

Magrider: 1 barrel
Vanguard: 1 barrel
Prowler: 2 barrels

So if you like 1 barrel because it "frees up" your attention then you have 2 choices for this- the Vanguard is not unique.

Vanguard: tank treads
Prowler: tank treads
Magrider: omni-directional

So if you like tank treads for whatever reason then you have 2 choices for this- the Vanguard is not unique.

Prowler: regular resistance
Magrider: regular resistance
Vanguard: a little extra HP on front armor

So yeah, the Vanguard gets a little extra frontal armor but this has 0 impact on how the Vanguard behaves. You can mitigate damage in a lot of ways. It is unique, in that 2 tanks have regular resistance but unlike the firing or movement it is entirely passive.

Prowler: Lockdown
Magrider: Boost
Vanguard: Extra HP for a short time

Again, the ability is the same as the built-in component and is just extra HP for a brief period of time- the same thing can be achieved with fire suppression (with the added bonus that if you wait until you have taken damage you cannot waste FS). Similar to other items in the game available to all factions (heavy shield and Sunderer shield) and, as I mentioned, does not have any impact on the handling/firing of the tank.

Any tactic you think is unique to the shield can be done almost exactly the same with MAX fire suppression and often times even better.

You are right though that "fun" is hardly objective and part of the idea here is to debunk the entire "revamp X because fun". Still, I do think the case is much more easy to make that the Vanguard is the most boring, since there is nothing you can do to make it behave any differently- the built-in mechanic is entirely passive and the ES ability operates almost exactly the same as FS that every faction has available.

Now, we can make objective statements about performance...

Put these together and I think it is fairly clear where attention in the MBT department should be focused.

I still don't understand how anyone who has a MBT that has that freaking overshield could be asking for a buff. When i lead Mag squads to do AV work, when we hit a Vangaurd that puts up it's shield i order the squad to stop firing until shield wears off. Because the damn tank is near invulnerable with it on unless you have 4+ tanks shooting all at the same time at it. Why waste ammo.

I have also faced many vanguard drivers that ripped us to pieces because they learned how to play to the strengths of their tank, and there are some Vanguard pilots I run away from because Mags simply can't win in a head on fight with this tank.

Vanguard AP certed has a 3,5 second reload and no refire time. So one cycle of fire and reload is 3,5 seconds long. It deals 2075 damage per shot. It has a 1,15x weapon damage modifier against Prowlers/Magriders. Prowlers/Magriders have a damage resistance at the front of 63% and at the side 58%
The raw damage per shot against the front is 2075*1,15*0,37=882,9125 damage
The raw damage per shot against the side is 2075*1,15*0,42=1002,225 damage

A Prowler has 4000 health
4000/882,9125=4,53 shots, you can't shoot half a shot so it comes down to 5 shots to the front to kill a Prowler
4000/1002,225=3,99 shots, so 4 shots to the side to kill him.
You don't need to reload the last shot, so to the front it takes 3,5*4=14 seconds TTK to the front
3,5*3=10,5 seconds of TTK to the side.

So I have to apologize to you. You are right. I hereby retract my official seal of ********.

Here are also the Prowler TTK times I calculated in a previous post, The first calculations are for a shielded Vanguard, the later one's are for an unshielded Vanguard. I have calculated with and without reload speed.

A Prowler with maxed reload and maxed anchor mode has a reload of 0,8 seconds.
A Prowler shoots the first shot instant, 0,5 seconds later he fires the second shot, 0,5 seconds later your reload starts. This means that a Prowler has a firing cycle of 0,5+0,5+0,8=1,8 seconds. So in 1,8 seconds he fires two shots and is fully reloaded to fire the second salvo.

AP ammo deals 1250 damage per shot. Weapon specific damage reduction comes into play now.
A knife has a weapon specific damage reduction against tanks of 100%, so it deals no damage.
AP ammo has a weapon specific damage reduction against tanks of -13% (that's minus 13%), so it gains 13% damage. This means you now deal 1412,5 damage a shot.
A vanguard has 68% damage reduction at the front, 65% at the sides. This means you deal 452 damage to the front and 494,375 damage to the side per shot.

A shielded vanguard has 6000 health.6000/452=13,27 shots. You can't shoot only 0,27 of a shot so it would be 14 shots to kill a shielded vanguard from the front. From the side it would take 6000/494,375=12,13 shots, ending up on 13 shots total.

Now it's easy. It takes 1,8 seconds for every cycle except the last cycle, where you only need to fire one or two shots.
14 shots means you need 5 cycles (2 shots per cycle), 5*1,8=9 seconds, plus the last two shots which takes only 0,5 seconds to unload (one instant one after 0,5 seconds). So we come on a grand total of killing a shielded Vanguard in 9,5 seconds at the front. 1,5 seconds longer than your estimate of a non-shielded Vanguard.
13 shots means 5 cycles as well, 9 seconds plus one instant shot. So 9 seconds on a shielded vanguard.
Without reload speed and anchor: 5*3,5+0,5=18 seconds TTK to the front
Without reload speed and anchor: 5*3,5= 17,5 seconds TTK to the side

On an unshielded vanguard, just for grabs:
4000/452=8,85 so 9 shots. that's 4 cycles and one instant shell. 4*1,8=7,6 seconds at the front (without reload etc: 4*3,5=14 seconds TTK
4000/494,375=8,09 so 9 shots as well which comes down to that 7,6 seconds at the side. 14 seconds again for without reload speed etc.

I posted something about it on page 6 or 7 about this. I used the monthly stats (link is in the post) that keeps an updated list of all statistics of all weapons.

The result: The Vanguard is outclassed by the Prowler and Magrider with each weapon. In case of purely getting kills the Prowler even had two weapons that outclassed the best Vanguard weapon.

I will make a comprehensive thread one of these days that incorporate all primary and secondary weapons of all MBT's to try and prove that the Vanguard is outperformed by the Prowler and Magrider. That post however already does enough for now.

It would be nice if the shield was like infantry shields, always on but recharged when you aren't taking damage.

Sadly my previous comprehensive mbt stats thread is gone since the Vehicle Discussion forum was killed off. Possibly Qaz and myself will do another one, once the game settles down and doesn't change so much.

Sorry to quote myself but it was too late to edit.

If the Vanguard shield was weaker but always on and recharged when not taking damage like infantry shields, it would finally stop this IWIN button crap, it is now part of the tank as is your 2 gun turret and hover. Settled. Vanguard has it’s durability inherent. Now I can equip fire suppression or give the vanguard a fun ability like a power shot, the Vanguard might finally perform statistically better.

Same information has been in the game from the beginning . Lockdown is horrible . SOE knows we think it is horrible . They aren't going to change it unless WE DO SOMETHING .

A. Stop spending your money .
B. Stop playing TR
C. Send your comments to Higby's boss ( everyone has a boss )

The Vanguard is statistically the worst performing tank and has been since the game was released. The only thing the shield does is give the Vanguard an advantage in 1v1 brawls, largely irrelevant given the size and scope of this game. The Vanguard needs serious help with AI. NC in general have no spammable weapons, no suppressive weapons, no sustained firepower.

Largely irrelevant nothing! 1v1 brawls happen all the time DUE TO the scope and size of this game. having "no spammable weapons" i can only read that as, "NC need a farm wep" come on now. really? hacksaw farm MAX isn't good enough for you guys?

I don't know where to find all these states, and then I probably wouldn't be able to read them, English + Math.. = yuk.. .

but, a statistical average is a bad idea... most veteran Vanguard tankers probably don't get blown up by C-4 that much, most Prowler tankers like the double barrels, after hundreds of hours of using it, most veteran Magriders figured out where to do and where not to go..

Is there a way to compare the top 10% of each? Vanguard, Prowler, Magrider.. and see what their numbers are?
how many kills do they get per hour, how long do their tanks survive , what is their KDR in their tanks.. etc.. ?

it is the same as the silly farming argument.... most veterans do NOT get farmed.. skill trumps math (?)


the skill set should be considered, before we let stats dictate anything. Can someone look at the stats for the top tankers?

thx.

They happen all the time but are irrelevant to the overall strategy of the game. 1v1 tank battles don't win bases and don't stop zergs.

And Hacksaws(and all NC MAX AI weapons) don't have the magazine size to be effective at anything more than picking off loners that run through doorways.

Here's a post I made, be sure to click on the link in it. You'll see the montly stats of MBT's, the current month to be exact. You'll find the Vanguard to be the worst tank in both tank kills as well as overall kills. The Magrider and Prowler both beat it by a large margin in both accounts.

So be fair to yourself. even if 1v1 happens all the time these real-live stats of how well these vehicles are used across all servers by all players show that the Vanguard Primaries are all outperformed by the VS and TR primary MBT cannons.
Check the link and check the data. It all proves it.

Not completely true. We have the Gauss Saw as our saving grace. I once managed to kill 7 guys in one awesome stream of bullets against a Zergrush. But one weapon doesn't make the the NC OP unless the weapon is really that powerful. From what I can gather, there are much more useful weapons out there.