Vanguard Versus Prowler TTK

The other thing to consider is that it's much easier to land shots with a locked down Prowler than it is in a Vanguard due to the bullet velocity increase, and flatter trajectory.

Vanguards are also punished more for missing shots since the damage is front loaded.

OH YES, now wouldn't THAT be interesting...

I think it's the latter. The Magrider is outclassed by EVERY tank

I'd take the magrider and prowler over vanguard anyday... it's piss boring with 1 shot and being unable to move side to side...

Forumside noobs..

We were talking about the gun, and this is a tank, so spike damage at mid to long range is top priority.

And the point of that entire paragraph is that the Prowler's main gun IS a good gun. So good in fact, that it is better to pull a second Prowler for its main gun than to crew a secondary.

TR is the sole exception to the "you need a gunner" rule.

You'd have us believe people usually solo Prowlers because the gun is awesome. That's just funny.

In a long-range slugging match(happens very frequently) I'd take the prowler.

I do this with magriders, if I have a second driver who's at close to my level (semi-competent).

Prowler's main gun is twice as good against infantry as magriders are so, if they aren't doing this under similar circumstance they're really missing an opportunity to do better.

The math simply works out that way.

If a pair of NC players pulls two AP Vanguards, they'll get 1036 DPS. If they both get in one Vanguard with a Halberd certed for reload speed, they'll get ~1118 DPS (the Halberd has a +50% damage modifier against most ground vehicles), if they get an Enforcer they'll get 1268 DPS until the Enforcer reloads at which point their average will drop to 1051 DPS.

Of course the two tanks combined would have quite a massive HP pool (especially if they're able to coordinate their shield usage so that they use one shield to protect both of them at the same time) so running a pair of 1/2s isn't completely unviable, but damage wise going 2/2 is a better use of their manpower plus it costs half as many nanites.

The math works out roughly the same for the Magrider, though it leans a little more strongly towards 2/2 because of the slightly lower damage on the primary and the fact that the Saron out-damages every MBT weapon short of a Prowler primary or the Vulcan (both of which are TR exclusive).

But for TR, if you pull one AP/Halberd Prowler you'll get a total of 1433 DPS. If you pull two AP Prowlers you'll get 1666, on top of the HP pool from the second tank. The Vulcan is a little tougher to work out exactly due to damage falloff and the ramp-up on its rate of fire. It also, of course, doesn't have nearly as much range as the AP primary. At a rough guesstimate though, assuming minimum damage and taking into account 41% resistance to the damage type an AP Prowler with a Vulcan should average 1816 DPS before reloading and 1465 DPS after if it's close enough to hit reliably.

Though "close enough to hit reliably" might be closer than 130m, in which case the damage would be slightly higher because it'd be doing more than minimum damage (but less than maximum because that's just 10m).

So basically, the most efficient use of the Prowler in terms of damage output is to pull as many 1/2 AP Prowlers as you have people for. Though keep in mind you're not going to be soloing a 2/2 tank in a 1/2 Prowler (well it's possible, but you're at a small disadvantage 833 DPS vs 1000-ish), if two equally sized groups pull 1/2 Prowlers vs 2/2s of any other faction the Prowlers will wipe the floor with them (1666 DPS/pair vs 1000 ish).

TL;DR you sort of still need a "gunner", but for TR it's better if your "gunner" is in a second tank. The sole exception is if you've got a Vulcan, and can reliably get close enough to kill people in one magazine with it.

Edit: Unless their secondary is a Basilisk. In which case, a 1/2 Prowler actually can solo a 2/2 that's using a Basilisk. Or any anti-infantry weapon, but I guess those kind of don't count as 2/2 for the purpose of tank vs tank because the AI weapon won't contribute to that encounter.

So far you are telling me that your imagination is what connects paper DPS and soloing frequency, but you are passing it off as math.

People notice that they do more damage with the main gun than the secondary. This means they get more kills, and their assists are worth more since those scale on damage now. How do you get to use the main gun? You pull your own tank.

Thus TR players would typically rather pull another tank than get in a gunner seat, because they can feel how much more powerful the gun is. Simple.

If the TR had a lame main gun and awesome secondaries, you would see more TR gunners and less Prowler pulls because most people would rather wait for someone else to pull a Prowler (and get stuck having to use the main gun) so they can hop in the secondary seat. This is why there are so many Magrider gunners.

So it stands to reason that the Prowler's gun isn't just strong on paper, it's strong enough in practice that people can feel the difference and would rather use the main gun than man a secondary.

It's also strong enough in practice that the Prowler is the best-scoring tank despite the lack of gunners (which would normally dilute score-per-tank, since you've only got one person earning EXP from it instead of two and no extra EXP from gunner/driver kill shares).

But hey, if you still believe the Prowler's main gun is underpowered, you can go ahead and post what you think a "balanced" Prowler AP would look like so we can laugh at how ludicrously OP it is.

Or you could look at this way.

The vanguards have secondary gunners as they know they will get plenty of certs from the main gunner with long distance AP shells and the safety of the shield and they have decent secondary unlike the TR.

Also the prowler Is only decent if you land both projectiles, but unless you have top notch skills or very close range it dose not happen as much as people are trying to make out, if it did, then there would be more tears on this forum, as there is not you can very much gauge people don't see the prowler as a real threat

Where do you get the 3 second average? It's 0,5 second between the first and second shot, and 0,5 second after the second shot before the reload kicks in. Reload is 2,5 seconds, so you get 3,5 seconds total for one fire cycle. I made this mistake before as well.

I made a post showing the monthly stats. The Vangaurd was outclassed in vehicle kills by both the Magrider and Prowler, The Vanguard was even outclassed by two weapons of the Prowler in infantry kills, and one Magrider weapon outclassed it while the next magrider weapon was very close to the best Vanguard weapon.

Just for grabs, the post is below:


Everyone always likes to tell me that "stats on paper aren't the same as what happens real-life". And I would like to expand on two things of your post, namely the stats of the Vanguard, Prowler and Magrider compared to eachother, as well as the whole "1v1 on paper" scenario.

the 1v1 on paper scenario works pretty well to get an idea of things. It tells us how things could work out in a direct confrontation. But how many times do you see a real, fair confrontation on Planetside? Tanks need to consider more enemies than the other tank. Even in busy combat with another Prowler I'll be looking out for enemy and friendly HA's that might damage me or my enemy. I'll be trying to stick to some cover, making my hittable profile as small as possible while keeping the ability to drive behind cover in an instant. I'll be trying to avoid spaces where LA's have an easy time placing C4, or where friendly or enemy Engineers might have placed mines.

So let's get to the real life stats. As you mentioned the Vanguard might live the longest, but how does he hold up in the field?
Here are the monthly stats, I suggest people take this link and store it somewhere so you can keep yourself up-to-date on what the current vehicle balance is overall.
http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/
Select "MBT primary weapons" and then check "Avg V KPU" for the average Vehicle kills per hour and "Avg KPU" for average kills per hour. These stats take everything into account, infantry, aircraft, vehicles etc.

Interestingly, what do we see?
Current average vehicle kills per hour:
Magrider AP weapon (Supernova FPC) has the lead with 5,56 kills per hour
Prowler AP weapon (P2-120 AP) follows closely with 5,53 kills per hour
Vanguard AP weapon (Titan-150 AP) closes the AP group with... 4,33 kills per hour. It has more than a whole kill less per hour than the other two tanks!
The HE and HEAT weapons are used very little against tanks according to the stats. Resulting in average Vehicle kill per hour of less than 1,5 (1,47 for the Prowler HEAT weapon as highest of the HE/HEAT group against vehicles)

Now the current kills overall, this includes enemy tank occupants ofcourse:
In the lead is the Prowler HE weapon with 13,5
Close behind is the Magrider HE weapon the Supernova VPC with 13,44 kills per hour
Then follows... The Prowler AP weapon with 10,18 kills per hour. The Prowler has two weapons, one of them the anti-vehicle weapon, that are more effective than the best Vanguard anti-infantry weapon!
Now finally the Vanguard rolls up... it's HE weapon has 10,03 kills, close to the Prowlers AP weapon.
Not very close behind the NC's best kill weapon but still mentionable is the VS their second weapon, their Supernova FPC with 9,11 kills per hour.

You can look at the amount of average kills per vehicle in the last month to deduce things like how may times a weapon is chosen, but the average kills and average vehicle kills still stand.

So just to recap, the Vanguard is outclassed in vehicle kills as well as kills of infantry/vehicle occupants. In the infantry/vehicle occupant category the Vanguard is even outclassed by two weapons of the Tr, and outclassed by one weapon of the VS but the VS have a second turret that's rather close to the NC's best farm weapon.


Now let's talk about reactive and non-reactive abilities.
You mentioned that the shield is a non-reactive ability, allowing the Vanguard to push his advantage in a 1v1 (or any other battle for that matter). This is a rather fun thing to look at, as every Vanguard except newby one's come equipped with a 6 second, 2000 health adding shield. The only thing certing does in decreasing the cooldown, which isn't interesting in 1v1.
As you say, the Anchor ability, or the afterburner ability, are both reactive abilities. At least they cannot be used in any battle scenario, while the shield can be used in any battlescenario where you take damage. This would give the Vanguard a huge advantage, as the Vanguard has an ability that can be used in the most situations.

Here's the most interesting part: The Vanguard has the best ability on paper, it can be used in almost any combat situation. Yet the Vanguard is on the bottom of the list! It's outclassed in every field by the other two tanks! Despite the fact that the Vanguard can and will use it's "OP" ability in every combat situation where the other two often don't even use it!

The Vanguard without the shield would be a sorry thing indeed, it wouldn't be capable of withstanding the other two tanks in any scenario.

Any questions? [/quote]

If you assume a 3.5 second cycle that reduces the DPS to "only" 714, it still outclasses the other primaries and most secondaries by a considerable margin plus it means the 833 value becomes valid for max reload speed.

So the only real difference there is that it puts a stock AP cannon just about even with a max reload speed Saron within rapid-fire range (714 vs 691, note the Saron has a 1.5x damage multiplier against tanks).

Which, when you consider that the Magrider practically has a Prowler AP cannon sitting on top of it that really helps put their whining about their primary in perspective.

The Vanguard and Prowler both have the Halberd, which a lot of people seem to consider the One True Secondary anyway (though the Saron greatly outclasses it for AV work). The Halberd is considered good on the Vanguard because it's better than the Vanguard's primary. The Halberd is considered lame on the Prowler because the Prowler's primary leaves it in the dust. Again, quite simple.

(edit: whoops, double post)

[/quote]

One of the reasons that the Vanguard has less infantry kills, is the fact that when a Vanguard shows up, infantry is less likely to try to shoot at it with rockets and what not, because the Vanguards is a shielded beast that can take it..
When I show up in my Prowler, every foot soldier with a sling shot and a bad apple will throw stuff at me, because they know there is a good chance that they can get me..

that also provides an opportunity for me to kill infantry while they try that, ...

Maybe the Vanguard just encounters less infantry, no matter where they take the Vanguard, .. maybe more infantry hides from the Vanguard.. and that is why the other tanks have more infantry kills per hour than the Vanguard..
Just because the Vanguard has less kills per hour, does not mean that the Vanguard is an inferior tank, or that the other tanks are "better", or more powerful.. statistics do not show that.

It can simply be that the Vanguard, on a statistical average, has LESS engagements than the other tanks.. and thus the other tanks have more kills per hour, because they simply have more engagements.

That's why the driver's gun for MBTs should be the secondary, to promote teamwork. Think how much easier it would be to get gunners too.

Or maybe it's that the vanguard doesn't have the raw firepower of the prowler or the ability of the magrider to get into off the wall areas to kill as many infantry, nah couldn't be that simple could it.