Meanwhile I've taken a break from Forumside 2 and have had absolutely no issues killing any unit on any faction while playing each faction. Funny how the less time you spend on here whining the less you actually notice there being any "gamebreaking""needs nurrfs""omg X is so OP" issues with the game. Pretty much all situations people have put in this thread the MAX in question would still be dead within the same minute of "being OP" due to the sheer number of enemies. At the end of the day PS2 is all about numbers and coordination, this 1v1/back-to-back style nerfing is simply just wrong.
I think I haven't run into a fully certed ScatterMAX yet. But I notice that my Comet+Cosmos usually wins me in every duels, even against 2 MAXes + an Engy (which could be a sign that they enemies were brain dead). Having an anti-tank gun helps a lot with front loading, and MAXes are horrifically slow. Comet, having no bullet drop, guarantees that I will almost always hit the MAX head on, draining a significant part of his health while I duck into cover. Also, having a giant blue ball floating to your face blocks your vision, making it really hard to aim. The splash damage is also great at taking out the healing Engies. Whatever is left after the Comet, Cosmos can take care of while the Comet reloads again.
Wow, 11 sec to kill an IMMOBILE target, it should be OP. Now try to do the same thing with a mobile target shooting at you. This player is pretty good. Everyone knows that NC, and especially GAUSS SAW is good is you can handle it. But if you cant, it is garbage. I love this weapon, so dont get me wrong, but you cant link a vid of Buzz camping at reception pad, claim this weapon is OP and say it is better than Orion for an average player. That said, if you want to pick some videos of GOOD players, np, i will link a vids of TheLeadMachine, playing a TR MAX and destroying anything in his vinicy : ! So what? TR MAX is OP! Maybe more than a ScatMax! No, TR MAX is harder to handle, and more rewarding when you know how to play it. Same as NC6 Gauss Saw. I think there is a problem with our MAX, but I cant figure how to fix it. TTK on other maxxes is too low, we are all aware about that. And dont come to me with 'Nerf damages' or 'Buff TR' (yeah everyone knows that VS MAX is a little UP) because this wont works, unless you want to have a new imbalance in the game. I think Mercys are fine. Same as the NC6 GAUSS SAW. These weapons have a long and hard learning curve, but at the end, it is rewarding. (Ok, I have to try Mercys, but 1400 SC/Uncerted MAX...)
I did read you entire post. I skipped over the video though of Max vs. Max - clearly that was in there to demonstrate the toys the max shotguns have and has nothing to do with Max vs. Max combat whining. My admittedly slightly pointed response was due to you not having tested the maxes yourself, your post clearly has a bias, and in fact doesn't quote facts most of the time, just opinions. For example - when you say "all the toys" - do you in fact just mean Slugs? That's the only gun specific add-on? Just to give one example to disprove your fact; you don't get scopes whereas you do with standard shotguns. Ergo: not a fact, an emotive opinion. And additional rounds benefit shotguns but not carbines/lmgs so much - you've quoted that as another fact - but I've never run out of shotgun ammo on my max as it's died before then, and on my lighter classes I regularly run out of carbine/auto ammo but rarely run out of shotgun ammo... so I would contest again this isn't a fact, just an opinion based on your personal experiences. If you put down suppression fire with a group of maxes, I'd bet you run out of ammo far faster than a shotgun (which can't do this). That's a guess by the way. Anyway; I don't disagree that it dominates in conditions best suited to maxes; ambush, corners, small spaces - when one or two randoms turn up. I still get mown down by T9 Carvs if I try running between outer cap points though, and die very quickly even in optimal conditions if there are three enemy in a group. Go try the hacksaws for yourself I'd suggest, use the 30min trial if you can to save some money; don't test in a biolab where we know it does well, try testing it in a tech plant or amp station assault/defence.
the point wasn't that it was OP, it was that someone claimed it was utter garbage, I pointed out that if used correctly it is amazing, It depends on your play style. Still dancing around the subject tho. Are shotguns truly so terrible that you can claim NC deserve having 2, while TR/VS receive two halves of a gun to combine into 1 gun? By all the toys I do indeed mean 'extended magazine' it directly affects your killing potential (just for an example, if you're wielding hacksaws, without extended mags you cannot kill a MAX at 10 meters without reloading, with extended mags you can) That is directly affecting your killing power. So I'm guessing you confused this with carrying around additional ammo, which wasn't what I was talking about, rather the ability to make your clips bigger, therefor increasing the amount of people you can butcher before needing a reload. Second yes, slug rounds it allows them to adjust their play style and engagement range. All extended magazine does for TR/VS is allow you to go longer before needing a reload, but they already have pretty big (and slow firing) clips and as such last for a long time without them. If they had laser dot sights for 500, that would give them a way to increase their killing power directly, just like extended magazine does for shotguns. Again, did I complain that it dominates close quarters? Not really, that's putting words in my mouth, the question is very simple so let me summarize: Do you honestly believe that a shotgun, in the hands of a MAX (the only 'class' who can survive to charge into CQC and doesn't need to sneak) is so bad, that you need to receive two fully functional ones, to compensate for the fact that TR/VS have only received 1 gun (since each gun is only about as effective as half a gun).
Ok then, I do agree with you. I am not. I am fully aware about TTK issue vs other MAXXES. I am 100% for a resist buff vs small weapons. But as I said, i dont know how they can balance this without unbalance NCs. If you nerf NC MAX damage, TR and (hoppefully) future buffed VS MAX will dominate at any ranges. If you nerf Shotgun damage VS MAXXES, same problem. The only way to balance this is to buff kinetic armor, or buff the natural resist vs small weapons of the MAX. But is it a good idea? Maybe Maxxes will be OP, I dont know. Again, TR have Mercys, and these weapons are amazing. Ok, they are harder to use, but in my opinion more rewarding than the slugged Hacksaws. And for VS, we all agree : it needs some love.
I think part of the issue here is the belief that the counter for an AI MAX is another AI MAX; this isn't the case. The counter for MAX's is AV, so HA with rocket launchers or AV MAX.
I repeat, I am not trying to get only VS buffed, VS is fine.. The cosmos is in my opinion a better weapon than the mercy, they have about the same accuracy (TR slightly better the first few shots, VS better when going full auto) their DPS is almost identical, their accuracy is almost identical but the VS have 25 more shots than the TR. They do have slightly more recoil and slower bullets, but nothing major. On top of that the VS weapons all reload faster than TR. The nebula is an exact carbon copy of the stock TR heavy cycler, so again.. It's not that VS is weaker than TR. my point still stands: Why couldn't they give TR/VS the ability to iron sight and/or cert into red dot/forward grip? As it stands now it's 2 shotguns with the only two upgrades that matter (extended magazine, slugs), vs roughly 1 LMG that's been nerfed since it doesn't have the utility of an actual LMG. AV MAX get their behinds handed to them by AI MAXes.. and that's across all factions, 1 dual AV MAX vs 1 dual AI MAX will lose. I wish it was different but it aint.
I think your latter ideas on how to fix this problem are best. Rather then nerf the only faction max infantry really fear, just bring the other two to its level.
Agreed and very true. You sir show some sense and therefore you get a +1. Whatever happened to the AV in Beta where it was some 5 rounds? Granted it was too effective against Infantry at the time, however it was actually effective against MAXs and Vehicles. If ESAV doesn't get put in anytime soon, they could just put those old things back and reduce/remove the AoE so as it's not an Infantry farmer.
The only faction that can complain about their MAX's are the Vanu. Dual cyclers, be it heavy cyclers or Mercy's, are very deadly over a longer effective range(up to 20/25m) than a scattershot max but not as deadly at point blank range. Another point that seems to have been glazed over is that the reload on scattershot in general, but especially on weapons like the Hacksaw, will mean death for the NC max if it happens in the middle of combat. I agree that the Scattershot is very powerful at its effective range but it comes with some significant drawbacks. If you nerf the damage potential at 5m then you need to reduce the drawbacks by an equatable amount.
Nebula has the same fire rate and damage as a stock heavy cycler, only it has faster reload and no bullet drop. Cosmos has almost the same accuracy as a Mercy (slightly worse first few shots, better when full auto) but with 25 more shots per clip. Shoots slightly slower but does more damage per bullet, DPS is almost identical. In addition to this the VS MAX has almost silent footsteps when running, as opposed to TR/NC who you can hear across the base. It also has the smallest hitbox. I would take a VS MAX over a TR one any day of the week. as for reloads, well that's true for all shotguns. It doesnt change that NC get 2 fully operational shotguns, with the only 2 upgrades that matter (extended magazine and slugs) while TR/VS get roughly 1 LMG without the utility that makes that weapon good (red dot, foreward grip, the ability to iron sight) Giving TR/VS those abilities would go a long way to even the playing field, we could then see if further tweaking of the fire rate would be needed. (the 25% nerf to NC and 25% buff to TR/VS I suggested is purely firerate tweaks, and would leave all factions with guns that fired only at 75% firerate of the weapons they're mimicking) They sucked, horribly. Trust me they're better now against vehicles, than they were back then. Also the bullet resistance for MAXes was way lower, so AI weapons were again, the better option for fighting other MAXes. :-/
Really? I remember at one point I was pwning everything with an AV max then. Maybe I'm thinking back to TT, but it was clearly overpowered then because it had large mag size, large AoE and large direct damage. But what we've got now is crap. To me they went from 1 extreme to the other.
could be, but for the majority of beta they sucked in my experience but then again I was TR for the entirety of beta. I heard that the comet was overpowered at one point because it had such fast projectile speed that you could snipe aircraft, tanks and infantry alike. Although honestly while very situational, 1 MAX with dual AV weapons can down a deployed sunderer really fast by himself. The main problem is that while they have better DPS than a heavy assault, they give too much up for that, not only do they have to live with needing to expose themselves to damage vehicles (meaning they can only ever do it when supporting tanks, who hopefully take all the enemies attention) but they are also pretty helpless against infantry. In my opinion they're only really good to suppress a vehicle out of an area (since engineer guns overheat, but you just keep wailing at them, or hunting lightnings since if the driver is just a little terrible, you'll win )
You're right currently the AV MAXs have a ton of drawbacks. To many in fact. PS1 got the balance right though and while they don't need to copy the weapons, the need to re-acquire that balance. PS1 AV MAXes, great against vehicles, particularly dumb ones AND great against other MAXes. But not quite so effective against Infantry. By this reasoning, the Hacksaw can have it's damage reduced vs MAXes a bit, but across the board all AV MAXes need something. Maybe ESAV for the MAXes will fix this, but besides some devs saying "soon", we've got nothing else going on afaik with MAX development.
However to get back on topic, is there any NC players out there who can honestly defend having 2 fully functional shotguns, with the only upgrades that matter. While TR/VS only get to have 2 guns that individually are half as good as an LMG, but also being castrated in the fact that they cannot iron sight, or add red dot, forward grip, high velocity/low velocity ammo. Give TR/VS the ability to iron sight an upgrade their guns equally! Sure it'll still put us at an effective 1 LMG vs 2 shotguns, but it's better than 1 LMG (without all the things that make a LMG good) vs 2 shotguns. Anyone who says that shotguns and LMGs aren't equal, have to remember that currently thats LMG hipfire vs shotguns, since the rest that makes a LMG awesome is not there. If they had the full versatility of a LMG then we could talk about it, since then yes, 2 shotguns would be way more situational than two LMGs, but let me tell you 2 shotguns are not way more situational, than only hipfiring 1 LMG.
Can never defend it to your standard but there's a simple way for you to test it out yourself. You get a Scattercannon as default. Roll an NC and see how ineffective one of them are at killing.. well, anything. Should you be able to cert laser, ammo - sure! Don't blame us for not having that ability, though.
I've done that on several occasions, multiple trials giving me more than enough feel for how effective those things are. (that and running into hacksaw MAXes.. blergh) Actually yes I should blame NC for that, since they get it all handed on a plate and if they're unwilling to even the playing feel by giving TR/VS at least the functionality of a single LMG (ironsight and upgrades), then NC will need to be nerfed to compensate.
Why don't we just buff small arm resistance for MAXs, and just make it so the AV MAX weapons are the better choice to take out other MAXs. Right now AV MAX weapons are quite good at sniping out single soldiers at all ranges This allows all MAXs to continue to mow down regular infantry while being more balanced or forced to use the AV weapons when trying to kill the other MAX...
Initially when I tried to dual role my MAX, I had all sorts of trouble dealing with the two sets of threats I had specced my arms on. Record some video of you dominating with one Scatter and whatever you want on the other arm - I certainly can't do it without severely decreasing my life expectancy and my lethality, which is why I don't equip my MAX like that.
