Squad Deploy nerf exposes the horrible base design

Your "solution" to this "problem" provides plenty of evidence to support my insinuation.

Ignoring of course any macro or strategic solution in favor of turning an epic, open world game into a bunch of little inside the box instances. Kudos on cloning every other FPS on the market.

I've been banging this drum for... shall we say. A while.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=897526&postcount=190

There's a much longer version around somewhere I originally wrote for SOECC consumption, i'll dig it up tomorrow.

I am of the opinion though, that logistics solves all of the problems we are facing re vehicle-infantry, and even max balance. Why, well it works in real life, and even taken to a fairly abstract 'gamified' level. Will work ingame.

The eventual version SOE came up with, ANTs 2: eletric boogaloo, will certainly do for a start.

N.B - there were people proposing similar ideas way back in beta test, i've always been a little on the uncomfortable side with claiming undue credit.

On a basic level, my answer here is PS1 just had a lot less people. In any major battle, even if there are 3-4 sundies up (about all you can do given the no-deploy zones) its not going to be some grand epistemic mystery where the sundies are within about 40-50 meters. Then just spam the area with light assaults.

Its also gamey as ****, as far as solutions go.

Mechanics to make people dig in and actually defend sundies, thats another kettle of fish. But then again, even people manning stock basaliks does a hell of a lot and no one does that right now.

The problem is people just don't defend the damn things first and foremost. And attacks have to come to and end at some point.

Indeed my greatest worry from 'segregation' is that 90% of fights now only occur around bases, vehicles outside infantry within. So many ofthe most interesting fights that are had occur organically in the games few open spaces.

Making points practically defendable against vehicles is one thing, I think currently (for whatever reason) the issue is that vehicles become remain far too viable within bases, not that they can enter at all.

Make them less throw away (indeed at the same time more powerful), which logistics justifies. Then maybe bring us back to the days of old tank mines, thrown in sigificant nerf to back armour, reduce the number of hills you can fire off and make anything struggle to manuver properly in bases. Different ball game.


this was a really rapid post, as I care a lot and have devoted a lot to this (and work levels now down I bit I intend to launch back into it) but its late. Will post in detail asap.

As I've said, and intend to go into more detail about. The issue is not that vehicles can fire upon the points, its that the points (and bases in general) are not defensible enough against vehicles.

We have assets in game like the stronghold style walls and turrets that do just fine in this regard. Instead we are to put up what are not walls but giant dividers and make it a case of 'infantry outside get killed by vehicles' and 'bases are for infantry fights'.

Sorry, I don't sign up to that. Thats not combined arms. That's world of tanks outside, standard 2000's style FPS inside.

You are not defending if you aren't at the objective that is being attacked.
(That's why it's called defending)
de·fend

[dih-fend]
verb (used with object)
1.
to ward off attack from; guard against assault or injury (usually followed by from or against ): The sentry defended the gate against sudden attack.

When you re-deploy to another location to re-group, reinforce and then go back to the original objective, that is called a counter-attack.
A counter-attack is an offensive action.
An offensive action is not defending.

Side note:
I think TheFamilyGhost is a master troll who has so completely de-railed what was an interesting thread, that there's not much point posting here any more...

You will make tanks more weak and feel less tanky if you nerf rear armor, and thus will bring back the days of the 1.5 second TTK of MBT's against rocketpods. This will make tanks more afraid to push forward on the off chance they could be instagibbed from the rear. You remember when tanker skill didn't matter and the best you could hope to do if an ESF got behind you and started nailing you was to press E?

You don't make tanks less throw away by nerfing them in any sort of way, especially considering tanks are a joke in this game compared the counters they are forced to go up against. That being said the old smaller tank mines need to brought back because you currently spot them even when not trying to.

I'm not sure you're updated to what my combined arms proposition is, it's pretty well thought out and is by no means a World of Tanks solution.

Implement a resource revamp and make it the solution or at least part of the solution to end vehicle/tank spam so infantry players don't have to deal with the following scenario constantly.


While at the same time doing the revamp without hurting players who want a defined role in vehicles or that are passionate about driving/flying them a lot. I'd like to still be able to have fun with the armored task force within my outfit after the resource revamp.




3. (After 2 and vehicle spam is ended) Buff vehicles to the extent that they can participate in large 48 V 48+ battles without being vaporized by infantry AV weapons as long as they aren't being flanked. When I say participate I mean a Main Battle Tank should be able to fight in the middle of big battle with support, and not be reduced to shelling on the sidelines. This also means reducing the range of infantry AV weapons to 300 meters so that tanks aren't being shot beyond infantry render distance, and so there are not huge vehicle dead zones that prevent combined arms gameplay.


Infantry AV in this game needs to go from this.



To this


4. Improve base design and spawn design. That doesn't mean ruining combined arms gameplay/taking the easy way out by slapping up giant walls and rocks all around the bases. (I'm looking at you Esamir)




This means adding base designs that allow infantry, tanks, and air to all fight together and have a meaningful influence on the battle. Do you think it would be awesome to have tanks help infantry push forward in a courtyard as they make there way to the main building or capture point and then have infantry do the heavy lifting inside that building or capture point area by themselves without having to deal with vehicles interrupting? I do!




5. Fix infantry spawns so they can't be shelled and AOE spammed to oblivion. EISA Tech Plant's spawn was a good start.




It's a pretty good set of proposals, and they compliment much of what Jak was trying to suggest in his first post.

I don't think segregation as such is a good idea, but equally there's nothing particularly "combined arms" about direct camping of an infantry spawn rooms exits (and indeed firing into it quite often) with tanks, harrassers and aircraft.

I also don't think removing firelanes from spawn rooms and setting up hideous crossfire choke points (in Towers and Biolabs) does anything to improve the game.

I'd rather they had a re-think of the whole process at this point.

What you link and describe would fit with the dynamic proposed, replacing item 4. It would also put importance on vehicular combat in that the ANTs would need protection to get to their destination, especially should that destination be contested. I like the concept.

The problem with Sundies and defending is it's a boring job. While their comrades are charging forth engaging in important battle, those tasked with defending the Sundy have to wait for the occasional bad guy to hopefully come around. It's a catch 22 of design - to push an attack, you need a forward spawn. You need people to defend the forward spawn when most are going to want to join the attack, where the action actually happens. Again, I'm not married to the concept that cloaked ams is the way to go, it's something that could help remedy the catch 22. If there are better ideas, let's hash them out.

As I said earlier in the thread in discussions with Eskimo, I'm not opposed to vehicles having parts of the base that they affect. For example, I think one of the only things that needs to be done to tech plants is to connect the SCU room to the spawn room so that defenders can get to the SCU without being camped by vehicles. From there, I think we have viable routes to the control point that are relatively vehicle spam free. However, the entire point is moot without some level of defense allowed for the SCU.

The irony of your statement is if I wanted to stat pad, I'd just sit in a vehicle spamming spawn rooms...

HEAR HEAR!

Not at all, but thanks for playing.

This is radical, but just might work.
What if...
You could cert into automatic turrets for your Sunderer?

- Make it so the turrets on your AMS Sundy are AI controlled to engage any enemy in LoS and inside 50m.
(Something not too OP, like deadly accurate shots at max effective range obviously...)
- The turrets AI only takes over when the Sunderer is deployed.
(No 1/12 Gunderers please!)
- So if seats F2 and F3 are unoccupied, the onboard AI takes over and will engage any enemy.
(That way players who do want to man the turrets and shoot further out, still can).
- Let's say 200 certs for each turret, so only dedicated AMS Sunderer owners would have them.

This will make Sunderers a harder target and frees up the one or two players dying of boredom defending the AMS Sundy.

Bring back spitfire turrets as an engineer deployable IMO

This is just sad that this is what modern gamers want. Good by open world combat. Moar box farming on!

By box farming, you mean spawn box farming, right?

I clarified in my first post and then proceeded to correct your mistake with the truly honest intention of helping you; but then you replied in obvious and unfounded retaliation. You are the one perpetuating this, not me.

Maybe its a containment measure? Like a quarantine protocol?

Doesn't mean there aren't good ideas in here.

Edit: Anyway, i will reiterate that the core issue is building design. I don't even want to say "base design" because if the buildings are terrible the bases wont be and decent either. The designers have done a fantastic job with the geography, but have not produced quality architecture.

I mean, has no one even noticed that there are no beds or bathrooms on auraxis? not to mention public utilities, hospitals, government infrastructure... Auraxians haven't even figured out how to pave the freaking roads.

I don't recall saying there aren't any good ideas in here.

I just happen to find threads a lot more interesting when there's input from lots of people and an evolving discussion rather than a handful of bulls all head butting each other in the hopes that the others skulls will cave in first. No one here is looking for some sort of communal common ground we can use to address issues that we all agree are present in the game. They're just waiting for everyone else to lose interest so they can use the last word to claim victory.

All the thoughts and ideas happened in the first 4 or 5 pages. After that it just turned into a massive feedback loop. I'm just having a giggle out loud that it's lasted this long on head butting, epeening and stat comparing alone for over 25 pages without any new ideas, thoughts or progression to the conversation.

Oh my Vanu, yes. Make this happen.

On topic though, I'm with Jak of the subject. Post OMFG, squad leaders are forced to abuse the 'beacon in spawnroom' bug to be able to get on the point. An enemy platoon composed of 43 tanks, a Sunderer and 5 guys who are actually on point, cannot and should not be able to take a base from a squad of 12 coordinated and organized infantrymen. Base Capture rule #1: Tanks Don't Cap Points.

Combined arms in PS2 should be that tanks and air are the driving force, however it's the infantry that waves the flag at the end of the day. This is done best in Tech Plants, IMO, where armor can assault the base and secure places for the attackers to deploy AMSs, heck, Armor could get you all the way to cover the main facility, but if you want to cap the point, the infantry meat grinder is going to begin.

Currently, on any other base than a Tech Plant, it's "Cram as much armor as you can to every square inch of the base, get one poor bastard to flip the point, make food, come back, move to the next base".

Perhaps you would like to contribute to the thread?