Shotguns: the coyotes of the ground game

As I said, there's no place in towers that isn't within that 10-15m range except for the stairs. Same for control points.

And I agree with that, in fact, I want to make shotguns the best CQC weapon while having some mid range capabilities (obviously, if we reduce the damage, we have to increase their magazine) but I want to remove them from being an instant win in CQC that requires much less skill than the CQC counterparts.

Because of the HUGE TTK difference, as I said before, in a heads-on fight, a player with a skill of 70 can beat a player with a skill of 80 if he has a CQC Carbine and the other guy has a middle range Carbine, but a player with a skill of 40 won't beat him anyway. With shotguns, that player with a skill of 40 can easily beat the player with a skill of 80, that's just bad design and it's as simple as that.

So yes, I could be the best player in the world (I'm not) running with a VX6-7, if I run into an average player that has a shotgun in CQC, I'll lose because that's how the game works right now, and that's just bad design.


Shotguns are overall bad weapons (and that's why I don't use them), but they're also frustrating to be killed by, because in the very limited niche they are useful, they leave you no chance to win. That's why I'm not proposing a nerf to shotguns, not at all, just a change (which is comprised of both buffs and nerfs), it would even make shotguns more useful (still the best CQC while being useful at middle range) for whoever is using them, while being less frustrating for the receiving end, and that's an improvement in gameplay experience imo.

CQC is literally the only point of shotguns, you guys just want them to be completely useless and as a side effect nerf the NC into the ground. We have shotgun this, shotgun that, shotgun tank, shotgun ESF, shotgun underwear. Jesus, just give us powerful automatic but pretty slow firing railguns instead already and make people cry about something other than shotguns for once. Btw if you increase the range of all shotguns but lower the damage like was suggested in this thread, you have to change the Jackhammer to have better range still or some other advantage that it would lose. It's supposed to be the longest range shotty.

Well, assuming the shotgun user has perfect accuracy, yes he is going to win a CQC fight because his gun is focused on CQC combat only. I still don't understand why you are trying to increase a shotgun's effective range though. If the shotgun still has a higher TTK in CQC than any other weapon, doesn't that mean that, in your example, someone with a skill of 40 vs a guy with a skill of 80, is still going to win because shotgun?

My point is that the huge downsides of using a shotgun are what make it perfectly balanced. It makes perfect sense that a gun designed entirely for dominating CQC, is killing you CQC. Tower fights are a CQC haven, and most people STILL do not run with a shotgun there. Instead most people run CQC full-auto carbines/rifles/lmgs. Shotguns are more common in tower fights though, for obvious reasons. Still, you are much more likely to run into an SMG in a tower fight, than a shotgun.

Standing on one side of the tower with a shotgun vs a guy with the NS LMG, LMG is going to win, because that is far enough outside of the shotgun's effective range to be deadly.

So you're arguing the guy you know who once read something about cars in a magazine is equally qualified to discuss fixing your broken car as the certified mechanic because the certified mechanic's certification is a "bigger dick."

Right.

Interestingly, the only person in this thread really talking mechanics in depth, with you know, numbers and maths, is the ****** certified big dick mechanic.

Well... You can provide something concrete.

Or we can stay in this metaphorical world of yours.

Regardless, it sounds to me like the op wants shotguns to be more like the Commissioner with spread.

We are talking about a Higby video game where stats can easily altered, padded, stacked, and biased, based on how a player plays the game. You can't logically use stats as the sole argument here so please stop.

Using metaphors is sometimes an effective way to communicate complicated concepts as simpler, easier to understand concepts. A particularly effective method is to attempt to use a metaphor to relate a complicated concept to a more commonplace occurrence.

Concrete evidence... like numbers? Maths?

Total count of numbers / maths / sciences you have used in this entire thread: Zero.

"Shotguns should OHKO because they are shotguns," unfortunately does not qualify for a science.

Please recommend a more suitable, verifiable, alternative.

In the meantime, let me regale you with how difficult it was for me to play FPS back in the day. It was always a thirty mile walk to the nearest FPS place. Uphill, both ways, always in the middle of a monsoon. But it was worth it to listen to guys talking about that time where they melee'd ninety dudes in a row to death with an empty magazine.

Shotgun is balance by its limited range.

Whiners are not limited by anything.

Nerf whiners, they are OP.

Like screaming at a wall...

There is a reason why most people don't use shotguns in this game. They just flat out suck other than the very limited CQC areas, and even then why limit yourself by using one. As soon as you leave the room you are useless. You mention what do you do to breach the room full of shotty users? Equip one youself. Then you can be just as op as they are.

Perhaps, to stick with car-related analogies, he's the rally car driver who comes into a conversation of "Subarus are overpowered" and says, "Actually I win my World Rally Championship races in a Citroen." (Full disclosure: 95% of my rally racing knowledge came from this wikipedia page 3 minutes ago. I've never even heard of Citroen before.)

In which case it's really not about epeen, and simply that the experienced person is more qualified and achieves victory without the "overpowered" thing.

And it's ironic that I wikipedia'd it, because that's one of the main points of The Death of Expertise, which is a great article about how nowadays inexperienced people often directly challenge those with proven experience. Which is very appropriate to the conversation.

Granted, it doesn't mean every expert is automatically right. My stats aren't too far off from Posse's (much higher SPM but much worse K/D), yet I feel shotguns don't really offer enough of an advantage over CQC carbines to be worth the lousy mid-range performance (whereas CQC carbs do quite well there.)

No, because the difference in CQC TTK won't be as big as it is now, if you make mistakes you're going to lose against a worse CQC weapon (which is what's not happening now), if the TTK goes from 0.23 (following the autoshotgun example) to, say, 0.35, against the 0.43 of the TRV, the margin for error is much lower now. At equal skill the guy will win because shotgun, but the guy with 40 skill won't win

I'm not saying it's overpowered or anything, my point is that the extreme nature of the shotgun (autowin up to a certain range, autolose outside that range) makes for a bad gameplay experience, which is why most people don't use them (myself included) and why it's so frustrating to die against one.

All this skill talk. Lol. The dude with skill of 40 was smart enough to equip a cqc weapon in a cqc situation while you didnt.

Shoguns STAY. They were already nerfed once. Nerfing them again would just make SMG the only thing worth running ANYWHERE

It doesn't matter how much experience you have with cars, if all you're doing is changing the tire. Terrible metaphors are terrible.

Just in case, I never had boosts or membership

In fact, I agree with that, but my problem with shotguns is not that (as I already made it clear in a previous post that's just after your post)

Citreon is a French car maker.

Sebastian Loeb is the winniest rally driver in a very long time.

Pretty sure Subaru hasn't participated in WRC for a fairly long time due to displacement limits. That said, I hear Subaru is retooling to have another go under new displacement limits that I don't think are in effect yet.

Not a huge WRC / motorsports person, though I do like to keep tabs because cars are awesome.

Btw, if Loeb ever has any advice on driving and / or winning rally races for me, you can bet I'm going to take his word over the rally scrubs in this forum. dBMachine can pick option two which will probably come from that model James May had to chaperon during the Top Gear rally adventure, which admittedly is entirely valid, but for also for an entirely different set of reasons. But she did sit in a rally car once, and I suppose that is what matters.

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Don't try to insinuate otherwise; it's unbecoming.

So you going to tell me why shotguns need to undercut TTK by as much as 67% when not OHKOing or what? Please use some sciences as evidence to support your claim. Otherwise it's all just feelings ( "muh shutgan" ), when you are the one calling for a discussion on mechanics.

You ever play Battlefield 3? How was shotgun balance in Battlefield 3? Pretty good? It was pretty good.

Umm..... shotguns are not instagib (anymore as far as I can tell, havn't used pump in a while). But it's not like there are no other weapons that are similarly instagib. Rockets to the face, Bolt Action Sniper Rifles to the face, Tank to the face, liberator, lolpods, BB.... I don't think you can win the "instagib is cheap and not fun" argument, and I can't really get on board with this line of thought.

Lets just get rid of all weapons and vehicles except pistols and put in rules so people can't get within 20 feet and prevent people from shooting you in the back and ... umm..... Actually this gameplay exists in the game.. It's called VR training zone.

Enjoy!

Edit: You guys do realize that this "OP" mentality is in the game by design. The intent is for you to spend SC and adopt the OP tactic until a re-balance then do it again. Stop complaining and have fun or invest some $$ so it's not so painful.

I'm going to call out ******** metaphors when I see them, don't insult us by making them.

Ah, so you're the guy who would trust that guy you know who read something about cars in a magazine once over a certified mechanic to change your tires.

That's good to know. Because, hey, I have a screwdriver and a circle saw. Not only that but I've read not one, but SEVERAL(!!!), magazines on cars before. I can change your tires for you, no problem.

FPS isn't, and shouldn't be based on a system of hard counters. Simply selecting the right weapon should not be an "I win" button over those who selected a less optimal weapon, because this type of design separates skill from success when skill should be a component toward success.

Victory is not a cheap trinket acquired through default, but to achieve through action.