Remove Vanguard shield entirely

OH lol. That's what I get for posting in chunks. I usually post just to have the first line down then edit over 3-4m.

Fair enough, I like your input on the forums so perhaps I was a little overeager and I genuinely was surprised to see your response.

All I'm really saying is that MBTs should be balanced without ES, if for no other reasoning than that other options exist for that slot. If they are not balanced without the ES abilities then they are not balanced- simple as that. I'd like to seem them balanced and I can appreciate that people find the shield ability very frustrating to fight against. Personally, I find it a boring as an ability as well so yeah, I think it would be a good idea to change it completely. Regardless of that, however, I still think that the MBTs need to be balanced outside the ES abilities for reasons already stated.

As an example, tell me how the Magrider should be objectively balanced against the Prowler, no ES abilities.

If you can't then there is a problem as you're just assuming that SOE will be able to in the first place, and that the changes that would need to be made won't come with a host of other problems, including homogenization and massive changes to what the tanks current are.

Another problem is that the closer you would get to "true" balance, the more overpowered even small asymmetrical advantages would be.

Well, I would say that if they are properly balanced then they should both be getting approximately the same score over time across a large enough sample, approximately the same KDR, approximately the same vehicle kills and approximately the same infantry kills.

The main Magrider strength is the omni-directional movement, the Prowler the two shots.

If you collect data and find that the Prowler most things are about even except, say, the Prowler kills more infantry then you have 2 choices. Change values in the Magrider that increase the infantry killing capacity (like splash radius) or change values in the Prowler that reduce infantry killing capacity (like splash radius).

Just because they are different tanks does not mean they should perform very differently in terms of score, kills, and survivability.

I think asymmetrical balance is possible.

That doesn't mean they're truly balanced.

Magriders use 2/2 more frequently than Prowlers and use flanking tactics. Prowlers use 1/2 and shell from a distance because it is their biggest strength. Magriders get to places other tanks can't and therefore get more HE kills. Prowlers have two barrels and huge velocity and can still farm infantry with AP loadouts. Etc.

A "truly" balanced game would see them all used at equal effectiveness in similar situations.

They are not. The only way to do this is to homogenize them. A Magrider and a Prowler are two vastly different vehicles and are used in completely different ways.

And if you're argument is, "It doesn't matter how they're used, as long as the numbers are equal it is balanced." Then you're argument is terrible since you're then in favor of spreadsheet balancing without taking into account WHY the numbers are the way they are.

Asymmetrical balance can't be done through numbers alone. Asymmetrical balance can only be done through understanding how each piece of the puzzle works. Numbers only serve to help in that understanding. That's what I think.

I don't think Alarox was saying that the tanks should be setup to score differently, I think what he was trying to say is that each tank has it's own, very unique playstyle, and the empire specific abilities are a big part of that playstyle. They are a vital part of the playstles of the tank, and simply throwing abilities on top of the platform if you were to balance the 3 tanks without them would make them extremely unbalanced with the abilities added

That is certainly a large part of it. They're all classified as MBTs but they're all fundamentally different. In order to use each properly you need a different mindset and set of skills for each. The abilities are a major factor in the way that each are used.

I think that if you want to make MBTs more balanced then nerfing and fundamentally reworking then isn't the way to go. Improving the tanks and adding more versatility is the way to go.

Prowlers too weak in close range? Give them an Overdrive ability like in PS1 as a sidegrade to Anchor. Rework the Vulcan into a reliable CQC secondary to give them brawling potential.

Magriders too weak at long range? Give them a new ability similar to Magburner that is omni-directional, but works more like a dodge ability you would see in RPGs. Rapid boost to one side, ~10s cooldown. Can also be used at close range for quick flanking. Give them a new primary weapon that, while having lower DPS, has a charge up mechanic with no drop.

Etc.

Good points and I'm certainly not saying that it is easy to do.

Still, with the assumption that all players are trying to destroy targets I think it is somewhat irrelevant how exactly they go about doing so.

The Magrider is better at flanking, Prowler is better at shelling. Fair enough. Would it be fair though if the shelling strategy was so effective that Prowler had 10x the score of Magriders across the entire population of players over a fair amount of gameplay? Of course not, it would tell you that there is problem somewhere because both Prowlers and Magriders are trying to achieve the same objective but one is far more successful than the other. Does that mean we cannot have one good at flanking and the other good at shelling so we have to homogenize them? Of course not, it just means that the way the game is coded it is far easy to achieve objectives with A than B.

Absolutely and obviously it is difficult to balance things that behave differently with different strengths and weaknesses.

Thing is, it is no more easy to start with unbalanced base designs and then add abilities (that are competing with abilities that are cross faction) and think that will get you to balance. All I am arguing is the opposite- that if the base objects are more balanced then it is easier to introduce different abilities and balance those.

All great ideas but I still think that base, stock MBTs should be as balanced as possible because a) every new player starts with the base and b) many abilities are cross faction and not ES.

Also, I wonder, given some of your criticism, how you would go about balancing all the new versatile stuff you mention.

In essence, all MBTs are just moving objects that shoot moving objects at other moving objects- all with the same basic objectives of hitting and destroying those other objects. All I am saying is that I think it would be better and easier to start from a balanced foundation and then build on that foundation rather than saying the balance of the foundation is irrelevant because we will be doing all this building (still beginning the question how that ever gets balanced).

NOT gonna happen....They could had balanced the 3 MBTs long ago, they didn't....They like having to work Only on abilities, easier for them, frustrating for us, more feedback, live forums......

I really do not see too much of an imbalence

An extreme overhaul might ruin the tanks given SOE's balancing ideas
A few slight changes will make things better but as it stands.
I do not feel that the vangaurd magrider or prowler is better than another in a tank battle.
As long as you know how to use your tank you will be fine.

Prowler gets dps
Vangarud gets armor
Magrider gets mobility

Play to your advantages and use terrain to benefit you.
If you do not play to your abilities and strengths then you will die.

Also it takes time and certs to master tanks.
Don't pull an uncerted mbt and think to be a tank destroyer.

I think the MBTs are reasonably balanced when you actually play them within their competence range. Start playing a Prowler like a Vanguard or a Magrider like either of the other two tanks, and you have nothing to complain about but your own self-imposed challenge.

(The only way either of the other tanks might even come close to tanks playing like a Magrider would be to turn the chassis sideways and keep it like that for the most part.)

Balance is a good thing, but difference is a good thing. If we took away all the abilities and balanced the tanks, what's the point of having three factions when they have the same tank (statistically) with a different color and skin?

Then there's the issue of adding back in abilities. People are gonna cry about how they don't get a certain ability when their tank is just as equal as the other factions tank besides looks. Then they're gonna make it a certification for each ability because of "community feedback", and congrats, all we have is a beefed up lightning with certable abilities and no difference across factions except looks.

Just play within the right distance for your tank. Tanks, like most equipment, is based on the situation. Vanguards are good for heading straight ahead. That's what they do. Of course you can't win in a Mag against a Vanguard like that. Solution: use the terrain and drive around him. You have a boost and can hover. Flank him.

Same thing for Prowlers. You take a Vanguard on 1v1, you'll get wrecked. Get some range on that sucker, or flank. If you set up one AP Prowler on a hill and use Lockdown, you can stop entire armor columns.

Just use your tank right.

All NS with different camo colors, then add some fluff, but balance everything around 1v1.
Sounds like a battle arena is what OP would prefer, not a combined arms game.

I just want ZOE on an NC MAX.

**** with NS ********.

If anybody should get the tank shield it should be VS- the Tech clan!

As a dedicated Vanguard driver, I do agree.

Please, SOE, simply remove the shield which is crap now et give me my certs back, like you already did for some other drastically changed items.

I don't know what are people seeing OP on Vanguard. Worst thing you can encounter on battlefield is Magrider.
With its point click boom secondaries even chimpanzee could be secondary gunner.
Everything is caused thanks to MBT health buff. Magriders have very easy time to dodge with extended health and Vanguard shield is no longer emergency button which enable you to withdraw from battle with AT equip foe but I win Button.