Need help: What's the counter for NC MAXes in a Bio Lab?

Some good LA's with C4....I hate those little bastards...lol.

And dont just run up to us guys, c'mon now, you close the gap on us then try to bunny hop about dodging my SCAT so I just melee one shot you. I have even begun to go CQC with my DB Max and I just melee my way through, that MAX arm swing rocks even HA's...if he's just out of arm swing reach then the DB's will light him up pretty good.

As an extended mag dual hacksaw max flak armor MAX user who routinely crashes/defends Biolabs, I can definitively say what does and doesn't work...

DOESN'T WORK:
1) Frag Grenades.. with flak armor, even standing on top of the grenade only takes 15% of my health. At the edge of the explosion radius, I barely even notice them at all.
2) Bullets... seriously, assuming I position myself correctly, if you come into my line of sight and try to shoot bullets at me, you're in my effective range. If you're in my effective range, you have about 0.3 seconds to live. Enjoy it.
3) Flash Bangs... you may get me, but I'm already facing the right direction, and from my positioning, I know there are no friendlies in front of me. I go blind and start to see damage indicators, I'm going to hold down my fire button on the doorway I'm holding. If you're coming through and I'm blind, my bullets still deal damage. I got 3 kills from a single clip whiled blinded last night in a Biolab. Not to mention the infantry behind me probably aren't blind.
4) Single rockets... take off about 45% of my health, meaning you need 3 of them. Odds are, if you see me long enough to fire a rocket, and aren't shooting me in the back, you're probably going to die. Decimators can 2 shot a MAX, but still, same scenario.
5) Single MAX suits... if a TR or VS MAX comes around the corner and starts firing at me, he has about 2 seconds to live. MAX suits are only slightly less trivial to kill than infantry. They can have 200 engineers behind them (likely they will have 0-2), it won't matter. I've got enough damage in my 2 clips to kill you twice over, and with a 0.25 second re-fire time, your engineers won't heal you fast enough.

KIND OF WORKS:
1) C4... this is good, deals about 65-70% of my health with flak armor. Need 2 to kill me, which the average LA (the only class who can get close enough to use them) won't use. I can't recount how many times an LA used 1 C4 on me, I spun around and tore his head off. Then a nearby engineer healed me up. Problem generally with C4 is you have to get close to the stationary MAX to use it, and a well positioned MAX will not be standing out on the ledge of a building for you to fly on top of and drop C4 down from.
2) Concussion Grenades... basically makes it so I can't turn. (much) If you do this and run straight at me, well, you're still in my line of sight.. DIE! If you do this to me and hit me from the back, you may be able to deal enough damage before it runs out, but in my experience, I don't die under the effect of these very often at all. That said, they do effectively limit my ability to defend myself, and COULD be used to take down a group of maxes. Problem is, it's usually just 1 guy tossing 1 concussion grenade.
3) Superior, but disorganized numbers... you'll likely get some damage done, but keep in mind, I can theoretically kill 12 infantry with a single extended mag clip, assuming 12 well aimed shots. I routinely kill 3-5 people per clip, so if you rush a group of 6 dual hacksaw maxes with 12-18 infantry, you're probably going to have a bad time.
4) Multiple rockets... these sometimes kill a MAX, but usually end up in 1 or more HAs dying in the process. Keep in mind, it is not just about killing the MAX, but also the engineer and medic standing behind him, ready to revive/heal him back to full. If it takes 3 HA and 3 rockets fired to kill a MAX, and 1-2 of the HAs die, its likely you're not going to gain any ground, because by the time you reloaded, the MAX is alive again, and over halfway healed.
5) Single Vehicle Grenades... these do about the damage of a rocket. And can hit multiple MAX suits, but likely not for full damage. I've _never_ been hit by more than 1 of these at once, as they are not very practical in general use, so people don't usually carry them.

WORKS:
1) Vehicle Grenade spam... I've never actually seen it, but in theory, this would work, where multiple rockets would not. 3 rockets to kill a single suit, 1-3 heavy assaults die in the process. Multiple vehicle grenades thrown from cover could clear out some fairly tightly packed MAX suits. This has potential, I just don't know how practical it is, given that so few people cert them, and MAX suits don't generally stand on top of each other. Regardless, a single Vehicle Grenade would contribute more to clearing out scatter MAXes than most other options.
2) Organized, superior numbers in flank... MAX suits will be holding down a specific position, expecting enemy from a specific approach vector. The MAXes will be in front, engineers and medics behind. If you come from a flank, I can't exactly spin around and mow down my 2 engineers and a medic just to get a shot on you. If you take out my support, it won't be tragically difficult to down me and keep me down. Basically, go after my support, they are a lot less hardy than I am.
3) Really REALLY superior numbers of MAX suits. I may be able to kill 1-2 MAX suits in a single clip, then I have to wait 4.5 seconds to reload. 90% of my MAX suit deaths are while I am reloading. If you push onto a group of 6 MAX suits and bring 12-18 MAX suits of your own, you will probably prevail. This will generally be the typical way to defeat a group of Scatter/Hacksaw MAXes, but is not practical from a numbers perspective. If a single squad is holding down a Biolab, you'll only see 6 NC MAXes. I routinely attack/defend Biolabs, and there are anywhere from 20-30 MAX suits. Good luck fielding 60+ TR/VS MAX to counter.
4) Coordinate MAX crash with Concussion/Vehicle Grenades... prevent me from turning to take out multiple targets, damage MAX suits en masse, push in with MAXes of your own. This is probably the only method to defeat entrenched NC MAXes with relatively equal numbers. You're probably going to need a force of ~40-50% more, but it's probably the smallest group that can handle it.
5) Engage them out of their effective range... this generally won't happen to intelligent MAX users in a Biolab, and is better for attacking than defending. TR MAX suits can own NC MAX suits at medium range.. my pellets can land, but not many of them, whereas you have more or less 100% accuracy on me. That's when TR MAX dps starts to add up, especially when done in groups. A successful push by overwhelming numbers of TR MAXes can hold down an NC MAX defense with their medium range MAX suits. If you are consistently engaging me at medium range, outside of my effective range, smalls arms fire is effective, if you can sustain it. If I can duck back behind cover and be healed up, not so much. Better for offensive use than defensive.

The Biolab is more or less the native home of the NC MAX. Lots of tight spaces, lots of doorways, most engagements are from close range. You are attempting to counter one of those potentially most powerful units in the game, in the one place it is most powerful. You have a difficult task, which is why such superior numbers/coordination is necessary. It is not all together impossible, but in all the Biolab defenses I've done (at this point, nearly 100), I can count on one hand how many times an offensive push was successful. Just like I expect to lose a long range ground infantry fight vs the TR, I expect to win one in the Biolab.

Edit: VS MAX suits are garbage, expect to die. I've defended a VS MAX crash that had double our numbers and laughed it off, multiple times in succession. The only chance they have is to use their Charge, get behind the NC MAX line, take out as many medics/engineers as possible, then have a wave of HAs come behind them to help clean up the MAXes. Not very practical, hard to organize, harder to execute, but really the only way the VS can uproot an NC MAX entrenchment.

That TTK is dependent on the NC MAX being within 5m of its target. A TR or VS MAX will win a fight at 10m or farther. Biolabs are full of 10m+ ranges, 15-30m is actually quite common in them.

My source, at 0:33

Ah in that magic world where no one moves, and no one has an F key

You don't have much combat over 10m in a biolab unless you are LA on the roofs.

Both sides have F keys and working legs. Charging offensively is a pretty good way to kill someone and then die to his friends while reloading.

And I disagree strongly about range in the biolab. I got curious one day and used an engineer turret as a scale to measure distance, 15m is pretty average for the important areas of a biolab.

To everyone:

C4 or other stationary explosives cant be used. All doors to the generator room have at least 2 MAXes guarding it, so no approach is possible. Enemy MAXes are often instagibbed (Maybe enough time to fire off the first and only shot).

About typical ranges in a Biolab fight:
There is too much clutter in the biolab to allow for combat past 15m maximum. Due to the amount of cover and clutter, any engagement beyond 15m can be ended relatively easily by moving slightly. Clutter inevitably breaks the line of sight and hence disallows for direct fire. Because of the high health of MAXes, there is insufficient time to sufficiently/satisfactorily damage NC MAXes at ranges beyond 10m or so. However, this is also the optimal engagement distance of NC MAXes.

About NC MAX tactics:
NC MAXes have started standing slightly further away, out of splash range for C4 at the doorway. The doorway is the furthest any class will make it, including TR and VS maxes.

Concussion grenades should work in theory together with vehicle grenade spam. However, few if any people have access to these, unlike the default Burster arm as well as AV arm on maxes.
AV MAX weapons are laughable; hacksaws kill a MAX faster than any AV MAX can. No NC MAX intent on killing enemy MAXes or facing infantry in general would equip a Falcon AV weapon.

My question is:
Air has a direct counter - AA fire. And AA fire is arguably more effective against Air than AV weapons are against MAXes.
Armour has a direct counter - AT weaponry into the rear. In fact, the rear armour of a Vanguard seems to be as thick as the armour on a MAX suit.

If this is not ridiculous, I do not know what is. (2 HA rockets to down a MAX, 1-2 tank shells to down a MAX on direct hit. Not tested with AP.)

Perhaps MAX suits should have a series of MAX killer weapons that are equally effective for all 3 factions, that do poorly against tanks or liberators due to the differences in armour thickness?

So, should all MAX suits be more vulnerable to shoulder fired rockets, or perhaps not revivable, or made to repair much slower?
Note: I am talking about ALL factions' MAX suits, not just the NC. Any suggested nerfs would not affect just the NC, but instead affect all 3 factions.

I went through the first two pages and 'liked' every post that shows how easily countered Hacksaw MAXs are. Now can we let this thread die please? We've already given away all of our weaknesses, but this will not stop the none-can-best-the-TR/VS nerf squad.

The trick is to spam Grenades, particulary AP Grenades if you have them. And LOTS of them.(And Rockets for Heavy Assaults, C4 for light assaults)

As TR, and especially VS, your MAX unit is inferior to that of the NC MAX, so there's nothing wrong to use cheesy tactics to win until SOE decides to give a competent CQC weapon to the TR/VS MAX units.

Having recently bought a hacksawmax, mostly to test out the capabillities and effective range, I can tell you this:

5 m : 1 or two rounds from each gun will put someone down
8 m: 3 or 4 rounds will put someone down
10 m: It'll take a clip to reliably get a kill, but it'll kill a group of people if they're near eachother fairly reliably
11-18 m : It'll still hurt, but now it's not reliably killing an individual. Remember, if you and your pal are in the same direction, you'll probably both take a few hits, And the max can and will try to charge to close distance.
<20m : Vulnerable

In effect, LA's are your best bet in a biolab. Either set up C4 Traps where you know they'll pop around the corner from if you're defending, or shoot them from the roof of buildings in the lab where they have trouble getting to. The big issue is that the combine arms tactic works real well, since they can room clear and have LAs deal with your LAs.

In a max on max engagement, as hte video proves, it's pretty much down to whether the NC max has to reload or not in a cqc situation, as seen in prior videos.

Honestly, I'm not too adverse to keeping the scattermax at its current state, but I'd like to see either the other two faction's cqcs get a tidy boost to effective power, and possibly a bit to the standard ones.

Fixing the graphical issues with the common pool flamethrower and putting it back in would probably stem a lot of the complaining.

MAXs are fine. VS AI needs a little buff.

In your situation, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LOSE. You have clearly been outgunned and outtactic'd.

If you constantly change the parameters of your situation to void each counter suggested, what you're doing is thinking as an NC tactician has before they started this manoeuver. If you had not let them out of the teleporter in the first place, none of this would have happened.

"Someone tell me what the hard counter to 60 Magriders on the hills around Crossroads Watchtower is?"

"Bring air"

"They have 12 AA MAXs. Air instantly dies."

"Flank them"

"They are spidering on the canyons, have infantry supporting them, and there are other platoons in the surrounding territories, we can't flank them."

"Use Lock-on launchers"

"There are so many that they just disappear behind the hill and repair but the main force is still ahead of us"

"Get your own tank push to counter them"

"They have such a range advantage and the sidestep means that we can't fight back and will just lose our tanks"


THEN YOU HAVE LOST. THIS IS NOT A SINGLEPLAYER GAME. NOT EVERY CONFLICT IS INTENDED FOR YOU TO WIN.

They have clearly planned for every eventuality, and they outnumber you significantly. In this situation, you must now use defensive tactics. This means LOSING GROUND and either fighting a war of attrition against them as you continue to fallback and try to use your HAs to greater effect, OR allowing them to push forward unchallenged whilst reinforcing your surrounding areas such that they push a great swathe into your territory, then cutting them off and flanking them from all sides as they no longer have support on their flanks.

In your example, if they are truly as organised as you say, and you cannot even organise nadespam (that would clear the room regardless), YOU HAVE LOST. You now pull back and try to make sure they waste more resources taking the SCU. When the SCU is down, you fight at the outposts if you can, or use the remaining cap timer to pull yourself vehicles and get kitted out nearby. They now have to leave the biolab to advance, and you do not have anything stopping you pushing back inside.

Now get to their spawnroom and camp them such that they can't get the Hacksaw MAXs out to counter your infantry.






God, it's like the NC have to explain how to beat them... I guess it makes sense, given that our opposition are playing EZ mode. There probably ought to be a tutorial.

Lots of heavies blocking their advance, getting C4 down by Gens in preperation, not as an after thought, concussion grenade and counter max rush, just loads and loads of frag granade spam at where ever they are turtled... lots of options, can combine most of them together and completely smack back the average Max rush, NC or no NC.

this post i have quoted below sums it up quite nicely- and if you're VS_

our anti infantry maxes, in any build, CANNOt match up to any other max

If you DO try this- i recommend running the anti-vehicle cannon because it doesn't have the bugged terribad accuracyspread

if you're TR , you do have one option that's the closest insta-gib-esque weapon.

You have the Twin Mercies. And that's most effective ANti infantry weapon in the game aside from twin Hacksaws.



It's the VS who dont have a weapon that's equivelant.

NC MAXes do not pop around corners when guarding the generator rooms. In fact, they stand back, well aware of the threat that C4 places on their nightly cert harvest. I do the same with my MAX.

This discussion has been relatively nice and pleasant, not to mention constructive. I'm sorry that you consider this whining, especially when you do not realise I play NC.

Unfortunately, the flaw is that the NC are given a weapon that suits the majority of the infantry encounters in PS2, whereas the TR and VS are better at ranges where the line of sight can be easily broken by the enemy. The NC in this case, suffer no drawbacks for having this ability.

Do not go off topic and complain about the Reaver or the Vanguard or the infantry weapons.
I agree that the Reaver needs a little help in the air to air department. However, note that it has superior A2G ability with a very powerful vertical thrust. Compare it to the Mosquito, for example.
NCs have access to other LMGs and carbines similar to the TR and VS LMGs. Similarly, the TR and VS have access to other LMGs that are in line with the NC's NC6 Gauss SAW. Unfortunately, these require certs.

Now that all that is out of our way, back to topic:
NC MAXes playing conservatively, keeping from the doorways but making sure nobody gets in.

A few solutions so far: Concussion and AV grenades, somehow getting in then placing C4 or mines, continuous stream of cannon fodder until they have to reload and are overwhelmed.

Think all maxs need.
1) Medics shouldn't be allowed to rez a mech unti, we don't allow tanks to be rezed now do we?
2) Only 1 engi allowed to repair a Max at same time, no Thor with 5scv is not fun.

LA rush: Cover approach with smoke, and then rush in using C4 and underbarrel grenades to clear the room.

HA push: Throw a concussive grenade and then flank them. At the very least you will kill half of them as they stagger around. Your next push should finish them off.

Combined arms: Easy peasy, chain together Flash/concussive grenades and rip them apart as they stumble around blind and unable to target anything.

You don't! You leave the biolab and don't come back til they are gone. If there is more than 2 or 3 max's in the biolab with dual shotties then you are not gonna get the lab period.. You just wont... But don't worry its not OP!

Thank you for your constructive reply, next time maybe try to come up with something more original.

VS MAX are fine, the blue shifts just have incorrect values. The rest of the weapons match up quite well to their TR equivalent.

Solution to get a squad of NC with MAXes out of a position is to simply have more bodies than they do until you can spam them to death with explosives.

Solution for the NC to get a squad of TR/VS with MAXes out of a defnesive position is to get a few Scatmaxes and charge in and proceed to pwn.

Think outside the box (or dome in this case).

The counter is killing their Sundies and taking the satellite outposts before they get the SCU.
How to achieve this is up to the bio lab defenders to figure out.

Hint: spawning tanks, planes and Sundies at the nearest friendly base usually does a great job, even without much coordination.