Melee is to Brawl as Short TTK is to Long TTK

Considering one of the skills you need in Quake is making sure you have more than 100 health, I don't see how that's a OHK. Not to mention that the current version of Quake lowered the damage on both those weapons.

Also, you're probably making the common mistake of thinking console FPS counts. Quick rule of thumb: If your game needs aim assist in order to function, it's not a very good FPS.

And where is quake now??? Quakes glory days were before these other games game out.


Nope check the steam numbers for CS and TF2 which are both steam games. Counter strike is on top right now with just CS:GO but you can add CS:S and CS if you want.


If you are going to argue that BF and CoD are less popular the TF2 cause those are more popular then Counter strike.

IMHO, that's mostly because most weapons are intentionally gimped by the dev team outside of close range. Things like Battle Rifles, Scout Rifles, long-range focused AR and LMG are simply not good enough at what they are supposed to be doing - that is bridging the gap between the distance you can reliably drop someone with a carbine and the bread and butter of high zoom sniper rifles.

That's a description of the unfolding of just one specific scenario. (It is also kinda faulty since if a player has decided to
escape then a longer TTK favors them as they try to get to cover. )

Not only that, it's the same old argument fast TTKers use every time.. that along with:
"OMG I shot a full clip in his back and he just turned around and killed me!" .. seriously?!


One thing I've noticed is that most low TTKers hate the dancing part of longer TTK. They complain about
ADADADAD dancing and/or bunny hopping etc. They often state that it's lame, cheesy, exploiting net code.
In reality though, it just makes the player doing it a harder target to track... now I wonder why people would be
unhappy about their targets being hard to track?

More types of skill are involved in addition to the types of skill from other games. Which is why they're deeper, and partially why they're less popular because they're harder to get into.

Again you're falling back on the McDonalds is popular so it must be the best restaurant argument. Yes, those other games are more popular, but they're shallower. Just get over it.

Yeah. I don't think I've ever really used the semi-auto mode on any full-auto gun. Pretty much always better to try to close in on a guy using cover (and your regenerating shields) than it is to try to shoot a guy 6 times (or more, if he's at range, nanoweaved, or whatever.)

That said, TTK and BTK are two different things. I could stomach an increase in the former if it didn't result in an increase in the latter.

For the top two, I am perfectly fine with people escaping, but I feel as if positioning and getting the 'jump' on someone should give a greater advantage than to what it currently does. The shooting mechanics themselves aren't particularly high-skill cap allowance comparatively.

As for ADADADAD and bunny hopping, I absolutely LOVE those mechanics, I was sad when they removed ADADADAD spam, don't try to generalize or label us, me, like that. The difference between mechanics such as ADADADAD and a long TTK by default is that the latter is passivity, while the former is active, and requires 'tech skill', which I admire highly. High mobility is, I admit, perhaps necessary if we have higher damage, so that battles CAN be drawn out to achieve the sorts of comebacks that many imagine come with longer TTKs by default, and infuse them with skill rather than passivity and luck alone.

As a side note, I just realized my own supreme contradiction, wherein I despised the HA shield nerf. Now I see I was so wrong to go the ideal path that is forming in my mind's eye. I would very much like to see the HA shield nerf go through.

Bolt-Action Rifles are also really pre-gimped (subSonic rounds makes headshotting a moving target Very very difficult) and were even more so when NanoWeave armor prevented headshot kills. I believe the Devs actually did all this on purpose though to try and incentivize "Open Field Infantry Fighting" which generally are a lot of fun and regarded as some of the most interesting situations in the game (when they aren't destroyed instantly by Lib-Bridages and Magrider/LockdownProwler farmers). They're almost like Moutn&Musket Line Battles . This also meshes perfectly with the results of the Poll given that you DO generally have a much longer life expectancy when being fired upon in those open field fights. The only problem is they didn't actually design the REST OF THE GAME to continue to incentivize the "objectification" of open field control. That's something they've said they hope to change with the final stages of the "Resource Revamp" where we'll supposedly fight over Harvesters of some kind. And if SOE's smart, they'll also make these things immune to vehicle Weapons and instead require that they be "hacked" by Infiltrators.



The rest of this thread can honestly go die a fire however. LtLat's answers to a lot of things have been beyond laughable and demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of not just the History of FPS's and their "popularity", but also Planetside 1's initial popularity (hint: it was the addition of "SUPER INFANTRY", aka: BFR's killing infantry INSTANTLY and ruining the game's carefully balanced TTK in the first place that killed that game's chances of ever making it big. They were also an order of magnitude (perhaps several) beyond even the Titans in Titanfall on their impact Vs. the foot game which again invalidates his outright lies that all popular modern shooters are following the same trend)

This is mainly due to people not having the right attachments or LMG's/Carbines equipped for that range and even more likely: Not holding their breath because they aren't "career snipers" who had to learn that habit. The 1st part of that equation might get addressed once Engineers get deployable weapons Terminals, allowing for much greater loadout variety among players who are pinned down or too far away from a Sundy.

___accidental double post___ (plz delete)

What is the reason why one skill should be rewarded above all rather than having the reward balanced between all skill sets?
And especially since the game is designed in a way that getting the jump on others happens all the time to the most clueless
of players.

If you get the jump on me then you already have a huge advantage. But if I can react fast enough(reaction speed),
score shots(aim) and evade bullets(tech skill as you call it) then why shouldn't our engagement be measured by those skills
too? You can't do that with a low TTK as you are dead before you can even react.

Both higher mobility(ADADADAD) and long TTK are active mechanics since they both enable the player to express their skills.
Higher mobility - tech skill(as you called it) and longer TTK - consistency of all skills , reaction speed/evasion (if you get jumped etc).

I never said one skill should be rewarded above all others, and I firmly believe a balanced skill set is necessary for a good player, and the allowance of even usage by game design is something to be admired. However, it is impossible to make all skills matter at all times, but beyond that it is not a noble thing to attempt to make all portions of a skill set matter at all times.

My complete opinion is that a short TTK would increase skill in a variety of areas. In head-on confrontations, wherein there is no positioning advantage or expectant advantage, I feel as though aiming (which is technical skill as well as proper movement) reaction time, and evasion should be emphasized as the key terms of that sort of engagement, but without, wherein one is not in a head-on confrontation, the one in a superior position/expectance of engagement ought to compensate for their lack any of those given skills. Whereas the latter skill as battlefield awareness is near completely uninvolved in the actual engagement, a great amount of specialization in this area should be able to compensate for the other skills in a way that I feel it does not. The corollary is that the enemy's aim and reaction time are heavily de-emphasized, and their evasion being the key component of their defense, wherein I appreciate the active role of ADADAD. They should, rightly, be placed on the back heel. The 'neutral game', as it were, should not start with each engagement, rather, the neutral game's emphasis ought to be placed on before any engagement ever happens. This allows for a great diversity of playstyles AND counterplay, depending on which degree the things are emphasized. I feel as if this counterplay is not realized to the degree that I want, and that those who are caught off guard should be heavily punished, moreso than they are now. My vision allows all skills to be relevant, but some skills to usurp the others provided proper preparation and counterplay by the other player. Thus the skill ceiling increases, and diversification becomes even more important as the bullets get deadlier.

The issues this game has with relatively-high health pools comes from the ability to easily negate damage taken, or even death, at virtually no cost.

Do you know why squad leaders feel totally comfortable sticking entire squads inside of small buildings? If a bunch of dudes throw nades inside and half the squad dies, a medic can throw one of his own grenades - at his feet - and then press F, and everyone instantly revives with full-health, and all those guys are back at full-health. If one of that bunch peeks inside and smacks a guy with 2 shotgun slugs, he can stand under a bubble with a medic and that damage disappears in seconds.

Have you ever tried shooting people with a semi-auto sniper? If you land 3 shots on a nanoweave target, but fail to land a single headshot, all you have done is given away your position (while risking instant death from a boltaction) while he takes 1 of his 40-stockpiled medkits and completely recovers all of his health.

Do you know anybody who isn't a complete noob that runs extended magazines on an LMG? How often do people bring lashers to events other than goonraves?

Your team gains no advantage from attrition, only from a single, crushing blow. I'm sure you'd not rage as much about that one guy getting away from an ambush with 100 hp if the damage actually meant something. Once the resource revamp comes out, SoE should really consider adding more penalties to death and damage

Also, for those who use silly terms like ADAD, or have never seen a match of Quake, this is what 'dodging' is...and rails aren't 1-hit kills. Dodging in PS2 is usually too slow to outright avoid shots, and is mostly done to make headshots more difficult.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5AQRMpN8IIg#t=162

ADAD complaint was valid in Planetside and quite a ways into Planetside 2 - and by this I mean using macro to exploit latency compensation algorithms to intentionally and reliably achieve something like 'invulnerable frames' that are used in fighting and beat 'em up games - until the dev team slowed down infantry movement to put a lid on the worst cases the hard way.

Your point is valid however I'll try to answer your question directly; but I cannot answer for everyone whom are against Low TTK so keep that in mind.

The issue with very Low TTK designs is that you leave very little room for creative balancing. If most targets are downed in 2 to 3 rounds, then you're spending most of the time balancing mag size, RPM, reloads and accuracy. Accuracy will often come first and it's because of this that MW2, BF3 and their lineage is so rampant with Shotties. You hit, and only need a few pellets to land.
This may work well with Arena Shooters or Shooters which still focus on smaller scale engagements but in a game like Planet SIde where players are restricted to tools based on a class? Things get hairy.
Each class needs to have unique tools to fill a niche. This puts pressure on designing weapons worth a crap. If TTK is low, it then puts the pressure on ensuring one class is auto-win compared to the others.
Throw in scale and suddenly everyone either feels like the same class or some classes are suddenly never used because their tools kill one round slower than the others.

I really think that because the game promote class roles (restrictive but focused play styles) and large scale (including not only size of the fights; but the size of armor support, air support and others) makes low TTK unattractive to many because it makes the game seem shallow.
Arena shooters get their depth from player twitch, response and control.
And I get that totally. While I never FPS pro wise; my old drummer did and I played Starcraft BW competitively as well. The depth that comes from sheer disciplined play is an amazing feat.
However in games like PS2? Many feel that sort've gameplay is not that important. Sure, good reflexes and gun play is a must to make it as an Infantrymen; team work and tactics play a more important role. In fact, ROLES play more important roles and are usually a focal point in games of this nature.
Twitch based gameplay, be it RTS, RTT, FSP, RACING or W/E floats your fancy are "Easily Learned, but Hard to Master" games.
War games like Planet Side or ArmA, are just as complex on the out side as they are mastering them. There is a lot to learn and a lot more to do than just "Rack up kills". Least that's what I feel most of those whom object to low TTK wish they had in the game.

Because this is the game design for PS2, it just doesn't support E-sport level play; which low TTK tends to foster. It just doesn't. While many here will support the lower TTK and love the twitch action; PS2 combat will literally null itself if it is lowered even more. Infantry classes will mean little to each other and instead bend over butt-up to any max and vehicle they see. The only reason to play infantry would then be to "snipe" more infantry, hide and go AP mode on tanks, resurrect dead infantry for EZ certs and repair everything in sight for more EZ certs. Oh and C4 pooping doom fairies for troll purposes.

IMO, I like the TTK where it's at. Maybe if it were a bit more stable. Sometimes I'm downed in less than 3 shots and some times the enemy lets out a whole clip on me and I don't die and each encounter the enemy might've even been using the same weapon. Some of this may be lag but eh.
Lower TTK I'm fine with; but only if they add a new mechanic for some sort of mitigation. Lower TTK should be balanced with a Suppression mechanic so that weapons now have Utility and are not just compared for "BTK" and "TTK". This means that you'll have weapons that are great for TTK, some are OK at TTK but are good for endurance (large ammo capacity) and others will provide better "Suppression" to pin enemies down. Either by stunning them harder or by having larger mags for longer suppression times.
Of course, this means that yes? I'm one who promotes team play. Weapons with a suppression utility to pin opponents down would give squad members another focus besides trying to achieve low TTK and still benefit their team.
It will slow down combat a little bit more; giving those who fear low TTK some breathing room since they can (with skill) attempt to control the fight. However those of you who do excel at twitch game play with great control discipline will still find it at home when you insta-gib unaware LMG users with your TTK skills, especially in CQC where suppression would be worthless!

I'm all for pleasing both crowds to a point here.

Hope this helps clear things up about the subject.

I have a very easy to use formula for my own tastes:
If someone jumps me from behind outside of stabbing and shotgun distance and kills me without me being able to atleast turn around to see him, then the "TTK" is too short/fast and i probably won't be playing that game much.

PS2 sits pretty much on the line there for me, i think it's a tad too "instagibby" (btw that was a popular "fast TTK" mod back in the UT days - so "fast TTK" is not a new invention guys), but it's not that awful that it would stop me from playing. No, for that we have enough other things.

You haven't addressed my concerns about flanking happening MOST of the time by pure chance. That's the way the game
was designed. Everything is open, bases are swiss cheese, drop pods fall randomly etc... as it stands it would be an incredibly
talent to be able to NOT flank others. I know you don't mean to reward that(do you? ) but you can't talk about these things
outside the context of the game as it stands. So in the context of the game as it stands, I would like the TTK to be longer in
order to negate these chance flankings and let skill decide the outcome.

To be fair, the shooting mechanics in this game aren't exactly immune to randomly rewarding people with bad aim
I really do hate the shooting mechanics in this game, see my "CoF Just Feels Bad" thread I started around the same time as this one.