Melee is to Brawl as Short TTK is to Long TTK

How about you start a thread about it on any FPS site and see how many people say Counter Strike and how many people say planetside 2.

Counter Strike is at the top. Because it's Heavily reward skill and skill based weapons. Mananging Recoil, Movement, and aim can get you a quickly kill and take almost no damage. While not doing these things will get you killed.

Strategy and position are every MORE important in a Low time to kill game because you have less time to react when someone breaks through your lines. A good player can start dropping your team left and right with well placed shots if he gets into a good ambush spot. While in a game like planet side you have to unload 1/2 a clip this gives the enemy lots of time to react to being flanked or ambushed.

Why? I've said this before, but consider wherein a player with more skill has the greater opportunity to gain accuracy and positioning advantage faster than those of lower skill, then consider how a shorter TTK allows for said player to take out some of the threats before they begin firing with accuracy and overwhelm the player, then consider how situational awareness and tactical stratagem is integral to being able to escape regardless of TTK, and that a person has a greater ability to escape 200 people after being satisfied with a kill or two than they do with a longer TTK, as more of them would undoubtedly gain time on target with each passing moment than if they had left earlier. Then does not situational awareness and tactical schematics become all the more important if one wishes an advantage upon the enemy, or to defend themselves against said enemy, simply because the stakes are higher?

Putting it to vote would be a bit like going into a low-income housing complex and asking what their favorite restaurant was (McD's!) to figure out what the "best" restaurant is.

The average FPS player is quite clueless about how much of CS comes down to simple headshot skill. Similarly, the average player is clueless about how much nuance there is to PS2 skill. (Even average PS2 players are clueless about it!)

The problem is that all of the skills which are rewarded in CS are just as rewarded in the deeper games we're talking about. It's just it goes way beyond that, and more types of skills are layered on top. So while ambush skill still matters in Tribes, it doesn't win the battle alone (as a single headshot will in CS) and you actually have to continue playing skillfully for the rest of the fight to close out that starting advantage. And while aiming skill matters in CS, you only have to aim at where their head is right now. You don't also have to use trajectory skill to perfectly aim at where their head will be in the time it takes the projectile to travel there.

Look, it's fine to enjoy CS. It's a popular, fun shooter. It's deep enough for most players. Nearly all players will simply never reach the level where they become bored with the game, or never invest enough time into shooters in general that they look for anything deeper. My only point is that there are definitely deeper games out there.

How many high end competitve games have a long time to kill???

There is nothing deep about holding the hammer down and waiting for your enemy to drop dead. This game is built to be a close combat game where you hold the trigger until you enemy drops dead. Long range weapons are not even worth it over close range weapons.

Because you enemy can just run away after you pump 10+ rounds into him at longer ranges. The refill to full hp


It's fine to enjoy this game but you have to understand it lasted like one game in MLG and can't hardly even field more then one 48 vs 48 battle most of the day cause no one plays it anymore.

Quake.

A lot of this could be fixed by not making bullets magically lose 33% (or more) of their power (or velocity, except velocity remains constant and F=MA says their power (force) should also remain constant unless the projectile loses mass as it travels which is ridiculous) in a bare 100 meters (or less).

Like I said, if you take a shallow game and increase the TTK, you won't get a deep game. Longer TTKs simply allow the existing game depth to shine through.

So yes, there is something deeper about a game with solid mechanics increasing its TTKs so that it's not just aiming/ambush/CoF skills that matter, but that you have to exhibit those skills longer (which is more challenging) in addition to things like evasion skill (that don't really exist in any serious sense in a fast-TTK game.)

What relevance do you think that has to the conversation? E-sports aren't optimizing for game depth. They're optimizing for fun-to-watch games which are popular.

The reason PS2 isn't a competitive game is obvious: team size. Large team sizes are hard to observe, don't create individual heroes, they're hard to manage, they're hard to fill a roster, and even if you managed to get past all that the result would be terrible games because so few teams exist and inevitably one of them is always going to be better. Many of those challenges (managing the tactics and discipline of large groups of players) are part of why PS2 is such a deep game.

Similarly you'd never see a Europa Universalis e-sport match because (a) it's not especially popular, and (b) its depth would make it nearly unwatchable.

Game depth and e-sport viability are very separate concepts. Is that why you think CS is deep? Because it's been a viable e-sport? Really?

Bullet Travel
time Inceases Trades. If you are one or 2 bullet shots better then me. Mine can still be in the air after I die so we will trade alot even though you are better.

Long TTK
makes numbers too important. 2 guys can always just steam roll one player because you can't eliminate one quickly. So the 2 players can just hose you down.

Meaning full recoil
You have to do more then just hold the hammer down, You are punished pretty hard for missing a burst as you wait for re-coil to reset.

Weapon balance.
Weapons are better balanced against one hit kills weapons with short TTK (The reason heavy love to pop with RPG main. They know they can shoot a OSHK rocket and hide before a gun can do enough damage to kill them)


ect ect ect.

These are points the MOST high level FPS players look for when picking a game.

This game is not just not competitive it's dieing off after less then 2 years.

It eliminates a diversity of tactics and robs all weapons of their nuances. It also greatly favors Automatics over more accurate Semi-Automatics or "Burst fire". You're right, the idea that it favors or disfavors "skill" (if by that you mean twitch only....) is largely Subjective and even Extra Credits once weighed in on it saying it wasn't conclusive one way or another.

But it doesn't change the absolute truth that shorter and shorter TTK's cause more downsides in game design than upsides and it's generally used most by Lazy developers who are also prone to causing powercreep. OR the other fact that those like yourself who cry for short TTK's, are only 10% of the populace as this poll demonstrated surprisingly well. Nor can you blame the Plebians / Filthy Casuals for this reality. Whatever "skill" you think you have over them, is instantly debunked the second you're pitted against a veteran Tribes, TeamFort, or Quake god who can just as easily convert to the short TTK gameplay (but prefers one where 1v1's and 2v1's CAN last a lot longer than 0.6 seconds and fully automatics are not the deciding factor in tourney).

I made a post about this last time it came up that ended up pretty highly rated. Apparently enough that SOE addressed some of those issues already: https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/lower-ttk.174859/#post-2524135 ....which I guess in accordance with their constant nerfing (to combat powercreep) proves they're NOT LAZY. Which is a bummer b/c it makes it a lot harder to talk about them behind their backs when they're not lazy. Sadly I have to save most of my Dev Bashing for those ArenaNet d00shers lately.

Name a VERY popular FPS with a very long TTK.

There isn't many people to ask for shorter TTK because they are quit to go play the popular FPS games

Decreasing or increasing TTK won't have much effect as long as there are OHK weapons. And some OHK weapons are absolutely necessary for a combined arms game of this scale. A High Explosive round isn't going to make you bleed to death, it's going to kill you as soon as it hits. I feel that's how it should be.

What other "popular" FPS games are you talking about?

Counter Strike(for a 15 year old game), Cod, BF.

If Waterson was Full or High population on a regular basis I would agree popularity doesn't matter People who like those style of could just quit and play those. But it's not. It's low or medium 24/7 and droppping.

There are semi auto weapons when you can get 3 long range head shots in a row and your enemy is still running around to cover to hell to 100 health. Close range is not too bad in this game.....but long range needs to be looked at

TTK definitely needs to be shorter. There are too many people running around with automatic guns for CQB in this game, because with long TTK, CQB is where you get most kills.

Shorter TTK would make mid-to-long range combat much more meaningful, give people an incentive to use semi-auto fire and make this game slower and more tactical, like ARMA2.

I named 3 right off the bat... Did you not even read the post? ...typical amongst "I GOTTA KILL IT INSTANTLY BEFORE OMG SHINY THING OVER THERE GET IT " players I know, but atleast pretend like you're reading, please?

That's a useless thing to say though: If we say the Top 10% of all FPS players are "high level" then by definition there are more high level players in the popular games, meaning there will be more looking for traits of those games.

Meanwhile if you took the Top 10% CS vs. Tribes players and had them play each others games, the Tribes players would do better on account of that game involving the same skills and more.

Again, it's fine that you enjoy CS. Nobody's saying you can't enjoy a game which isn't the pinnacle of depth. I've enjoyed all sorts of shallower games. By definition every game I've played except the deepest one (whatever that is, probably either SC or Tribes) is a shallower game. It's just shallower games hold interest less than deeper ones, generally speaking.

If this game were more like counterstrike it would be awful

/faceplam. Says who??? You. Hypothetical sort of mean nothing

Then why are people still playing those games while droping Planetside 2 and tribes like a bad habbit

quake has instant kill rail gun/rocket launcher, One of the best weapons (current status of game -- Not good).

Tribes was never popular (current status of game -- Not good)..

TF2 is sort of popular but not like other quick time to kill games (current status of game -- Doing alright)

PS2 (current status of game -- Not good)..

No it doesn't.

Technically true. TF2 is almost an order of magnitude more popular than low TTK games.

Rail gun and Rocket launcher both did 100 damage when I played (direct hits) Armour will make it take more then one hit though. Game is basically dead anyways. Quake was popular before other styles of FPS games came out

Counter strike, Cod and BF are all more popular the TF2 and you don't have to pay to play TF2. You have to play the others games