M60 Bulldog does too much damage to armour.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by NotziMad, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. NotziMad

    It's an explosive gun, supposed to damage infantry more than vehicles.
  2. LodeTria

    Let it have some use, the thing has been **** for so long.
    • Up x 4
  3. NotziMad

    I'm gona bump this. Just once.

    Cause I ******* refuse to use this gun even if it out performs all the others, and for one simple reason.

    IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO.

    It's an anti infantry gun.

    Not anti ******* armour.

    The TTK on a shielde sundy with this ANTI INFANTRY gun is on par with my god damn decimator and even though I'm using the rleoad exploit. And on top of that, it AOE damages infantry (which is what it's supposed to do).

    I didn't do the maths, I didnt check the stats, it's obvious from experience : place 2 sundies not far from each other. Let them get shielded. Then have one shoot the other with the bulldog, while the other uses basilik.

    Swap basilik for other weapons, whatever rocket launcher.

    See for yourself, it's ********.
  4. Demigan

    Its a High Explosive Squash Head round, that makes sense considering its design. Reasonably good against tanks and good against buildings and infantry. Because of the type of rounds it doesnt have to travel at breakneck speed to damage opposing vehicles.
    • Up x 2
  5. blackboemmel

    Now let the Sundies move on any terrain on Auraxis while shooting each other. Obviously a completely different experience. Most players hit sh** with a Bulldog when the target is moving and more than 15 meters away.

    And please stop giving a f*** about what a weapon was made for. AP cannons and Daltons were not made for AA, still they do a great job for AntiAir. AND they are fun to use. Just like the Bulldog.
    • Up x 5
  6. NotziMad



    You're right that because its projectiles are much slower and have less range, it's not so good on moving targets, especially if they are further away. (which was probably the dev's reasoning while balancing it).

    But that's dumb, the sundy doesn't have any guns that are useful against armour in the first place, so there isn"t anything to balance it with.

    What I mean is, to use lightnings as illustration, the AP guns are "supposed" to be for vehicles. They are armour piercing, they are fast, they are accurate. To quote the tooltip : "they are strong against armoured targets".

    Yet in some circumstances the other lightning guns may be better or at least just as efficient against armour. But you get to choose. On the sundy, you don't get to choose.



    _____

    And no, I won't stop givin a **** about what something is supposed to do, it's a matter of coherence, things should make sense, I don't like it when things don't make sense in this way. And I'm not the only one. And I really don't see why caring about whether things make sense or not is a bad thing?

    If I'm looking for the best weapon against armour, using one that the game tells me is best against infantry doesn't make sense.


    _____


    But another point which I was making was that the damage the Bulldog does is way too strong, irrespective of whether it's an anti infantry, anti air, or anti armour gun.
  7. NotziMad

    BUMP!

    :)))


    By the way, if you want an illustration :

    in the blue corner, wearing yellow stripes, the NC SUNDERER!


    in the purple corner, wearking black stripes, the VS LIGHTNING !


    Now, ladies and gentlemen, before this match commences, I need to fill you in a little !



    [IMG]







    The sundy has 2 people in it, one driver, one gunner (the 2nd gun is not being manned).

    The sundy's manned gun is M60 Bulldog ANTI INFANTRY gun.

    To quote the tooltip the explosives the bulldog fires' "direct hits provides some damage to armour".



    The lightning enters the arena with a maxed out (short reload time) AP gun! (

    To quote the tooltip, it fires ; "armored-piercing rounds that are STRONG AGAINST ARMOUR.



    Now..

    The ring is a boxing ring, it isn't very large, so there isn't much space to drive around, and more importantly, the lightning will always be in range of the sunderer's guns.

    Who do you think will win?
  8. NotziMad

    quick simple maths :

    AP lightning gun has a reload time of 3 seconds. So it fires every 3 seconds right?

    Right, so we could say that it has a RPM (round per minute) of 20. (60/3=20, in one minute, it'll shoot 20 times)

    Now the damage the gun does is 700.

    So 700 every 3 seconds, for a whole minute will end up dealing 14.000 damage. (700x20).

    ok, so now the Bulldog :

    damage = 400
    RPM = 48

    total damage in one minute : 19.200

    But hang on a second, cause that's wrong... I mean, it HAS TO BE WRONG !!! RIGHT???? 19.200 ???? No ******* way, there has to be a mistake.


    So bulldog also has to reload, takes 4 seconds to do so.

    So now let's say that the cycle is like 4 second reload -> fire 4 shots --> reload again and repeat.

    Let's assume (it's an educated guess / estimation) that it takes 1 second to fire those 4 shots. We could then say that it fires 4 shots every 5 seconds. and call that a "round".

    If so, that's 12 "rounds" every minute (60/5). So 12 rounds and each round contains 4 shots; that makes 48 (12x4). It shoots 48 shots per minute.

    Now we add the damage (400) to the mix, so each shot does 400 damage and there are 48 shots in one minute, we get : 19.200

    IT WASNT A MISTAKE !!!



    Now, one of two things.

    Either I made a mistake somewhere along the line, and I'm not afraid of admitting it if I did, or .....

    THIS IS INSANE?? I mean ..

    ISN'T IT?


    In one minute the TANK will dish out 14.000 damage while the Bulldog will hit for 19.200 !!!!! 36% more !

    How do you justify an anti infantry weapon doing 36% more ARMOUR damage than an anti armour weapon?
  9. NotziMad



    And please don't say "the range".

    Really, please don't say that -_-
  10. Demigan

    Well the AP gun has 2,5x the muzzle velocity and way less drop. The Bulldog requires a closer proximity to effectively achieve that DPS, as it risks too many misses in other scenario's.
    • Up x 2
  11. Johannes Kaiser

    Also, are the two in the same damage type category? If they aren't, remember resistances. At least I think those are still a thing, might be wrong, who knows...?
    • Up x 2
  12. Demigan

    -20% for Bulldog versus Lightning.
    -20% for AP gun versus Sunderer.

    No effective difference.
    • Up x 3
  13. Twin Suns

    Take an anti-air gun and mount it on a pick-up. Boom!...anti-infantry! :)
  14. JibbaJabba

    Yeah I don't understand how three people working as a team with powerful short range guns can kill a solo enemy that is using a long range gun while everyone is at short range.

    I just don't understand. Let me go to the forums and wharblegarble this thing.
    • Up x 2
  15. NotziMad



    anti air does zero damage to infantry :xD

    So many times I've been defending the sundy against an esf or lib when I spot a LA flying over to drop some c4 and I'm like SHOOT THAT MOTHER****ER !!!

    But it does like zero damage haha
    • Up x 1
  16. Pikachu

    [IMG]
    [IMG]

    Now I learned a new word.
    [IMG]

    On topic:
    Remember when bulldog used to do splash damage against vehicles?
    • Up x 5
  17. NotziMad



    Nope ... @@

    I only remember this OP version and before that, I don't think anyone used it at all?
  18. Pikachu

    It was when the game was released, before the big splash damage nerf that came shortly after.
  19. Twin Suns


    I don't have a dog in this fight. o7.

    Just pointing out that in real warfare.....a bullet is a bullet...is...a bullet. I know it's a game and it's done for balance or TTK, but I thought it was humorous to point out. That's all.
    • Up x 1
  20. csvfr

    If it has 48 RPM (< 60 RPM) it fires less than one grenade per second so your math is way off. Even if it had 60RPM it would use 8 seconds per "round" of 1600 damage, or 200DPS = 12000 damage per minute, less than the lightning. Not only is the math wrong but the claim that the "Bulldog is an anti-infantry gun" exists only in your imagination. It is a balanced omni-potent weapon, like the HEAT tank cannons, i.e. in between anti-infantry and anti-vehicle. The reason you might think it does high damage is probably because it is usually mounted on high-health vehicles like the sunderer, which means that versus a lightning the reason it dies first is not due to less DPS but less healthpool/resistance values. If you smack the Bulldog onto a Harasser for example, and redo the thought experiment, the lightning will emerge victorious.

    Lastly, even if you assume that the lightning is incapable of keeping distance or mobility such that the Bulldog is incapable of hitting it, if the lightning driver has at least basic knowledge of the game he will drive up next to the sunderer, where its guns are unable to hit due to high mounting point / insufficient elevation angle.

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