Its slow going for me, but I'm still working on it! Trying to get Auraxium with the V10 and the Artemis. Then I'll probably move on to the Ghost next. I'm dreading the SASR's though. I had a horrible time the first time I tried using the Nyx.
I think you have misread my entire post. I am not saying that the flash/ESF radar is always as viable as the recon dart (although this is far more true than other "class tool vs alternative options"). I am saying that when it is it replaces the recon dart. My argument is that the other "class tool vs alternative options" do not - there is still a use for the class tools when those alternative options are present (in fact, they are often superior). The recon dart can't do this because it has a binary function; to detect or not. If something else is already doing that then by definition the recon dart is made redundant (in the area covered). I strongly disagree with statements like "it must be babysat" and "not easily replaceable" for pretty much the same reason as each other - they are easily replaceable. They are cheap, have a short cooldown, are fast (hence can be taken from somewhere else quickly) and are not easily found. You only need one or two at max. Everyone can get one. Why would they not be considered easily replaceable? Especially when you control the vehicle terminal at the base for flashes, or a nearby base has an air terminal. I somewhat disagree with the statement that they are "easily destroyable". This because while they are somewhat fragile (although not that fragile), they can be placed in positions of safety. One example is placing it behind the opponent's objective - if the opponent is capable of destroying the flash/ESF then have most likely taken the objective too. Objective in this case being anything that you are using the flash/ESF radar for - sunderers, spawn rooms, generators, capture points, etc. I am not saying the recon dart is weak. I am saying the alternative options are too strong. They make the role redundant when they are present, and they are made present very easily. I listed ways to make the alternative options weaker, not the recon dart stronger. Please read the post in detail in future, Astraka; I have too much respect for you to lose on something as simple as not doing that.
Like I said before, if the numbers are the radius of the effect, and the radius of a single maxed out dart is 50m, and the radius of the flash radar is 200m with the ESF one being 250m. Then the radar darts cover a smaller area. In fact, with point to point radial measurement, they would only cover 100m radius (50+50m in every direction). This would be equal to the use of 4 darts, forming a square pattern, with the fifth one able to cover an additional 50m radius elsewhere. I think that's how the math works, do correct me if I am wrong. The problem with the darts is simple, they are incredibly valuable to all concerned until there is a vehicle with radar functioning in the area, at which point they become much less used for obvious reasons. There is simply no need for more radar. However, I admit that since they can see moving infiltrators, that is a distinct advantage, but not one many people would utilise if all the other infantry were already pointed out. - Braddigan
Much like you would prefer a Combat Medic to medical kits and rely on an Engineer over using the auto-repair cert, I would much rather have a dedicated Infiltrator in my squad than rely on a Scout Flash or ESF. I have located & destroyed far too many to think they are a viable alternative to the Recon Dart in any real situation. They preform a similar role but in my opinion cannot totally replace the Radar Dart, even given perfect circumstances. Even if I could guarantee the safety of a Scout Flash throughout the duration of an entire battle I would still like to have an Infiltrator spamming darts simply because they detect enemy Infiltrators and the refresh rates overlap which would make following enemy movements even easier than they would be otherwise. Now I don't run squad typically so my opinion on squad makeup can be taken with a grain of salt, but even with the possibility of Scout Radar being available I think having an Infiltrator with Recon Darts is simply too important to dismiss. @ Aimeryan: And just so we're clear: disagreeing is not the same as not understanding. I do hope you realize the difference and don't think less of me for having a different opinion on something so insignificant.
Vehicle radar does replace recon darts if both are in the same area. It isn't a matter of opinion - they both do the same job (and to the same degree) and you only need one. This is different to other classes because while they may do the same job (although not to the same degree) you very much need more than one. Even detection of enemy infiltrators is done by both; just in different ways. Regarding your last paragraph, it isn't a matter of disagreeing - you didn't disagree with my post, you decided to attack a straw-man argument I wasn't making, which is something that disgusts me. I hoped it was because you didn't read my post in detail and thus got the wrong idea, because if it was deliberate any respect I had for you would be gone.
huh? I haven't played in a while, but afaik the maxed radius of the scout radar is 100m on flash and 200m on ESF.
Back to Infiltrator's in general. I think the radar cert that you're using should function more in theme with what your using. Maybe 125m Radar for Infil's Cert for INFANTRY only, but also 50m for vehicles. Since the Infil is mainly going to be fighting infantry etc. So heavy Tanks might get a 100m Radar for tanks and 35m for infantry. etc
Perhaps the Infiltrator could cap control points, either covertly(or in less time) or simply make points "appear" to be taken(maybe taken even by an enemy force). Also, a hologram device which can generate units on the battlefield when placed like a mine would be good-or even a "mirror image" of the infiltrator aka "Total Recall"....."Look there is an enemy Sundie! Quick blow it up!...omg it was a hologram, I wasted my ammo and now i'm on the wrong side of the fight. " hehe....."This control point is ours-this base is ours!....oops no it isn't"....."OMG I shot that infiltrator and he disappeared.....then he stabed me in the back". If the infiltrator had more options to choose from when capping control points(and hacking) s/he could play a pivotal STRATEGIC role in the sides victory both in base capture and continental control! Leaders could move forces to capture bases that "appear" to be taken etc...platoon and squad tactics in offence and defence would have a new weapon to use.
Again, we're looking at the same set of facts & coming to different conclusions. If you think that a radar device that scans slower, must be babysat, and is easily destroyed (at the least give me able to be destroyed), replaces the Infiltrator radar device - especially when overlapping the two is far more efficient than just one or the other then we are simply on different wavelengths. I've got nothing further to say on this. Unless your point was not that the inferior Scout Radar is able to replace the Infiltrator Radar I'm fairly certain I did not make a straw man. You made the argument that unlike Medical Kits & Self-Repair Certs, the Scout Radar replaces the Infiltrator Radar. I argued against that by stating the various ways the Scout is inferior - much like you did with the Medkits & vehicles. Later in the thread I add that even with a Scout Radar in perfect circumstances (which will be rare) having the Infiltrator Dart also going off is far better than simply just having the Scout Radar because the scan rates overlap & refresh the red dots on the mini map. Regardless this whole "you made a straw man!" issue is petty & irrelevant. I think I'm done in this thread. As these threads tend to go it needlessly reaffirms struggling Infiltrator's fears that the class is useless & irrelevant in the grand scheme of things when instead the posts here should be dispel those myths. People should come here to learn something new, discuss tactics, and figure out how to get better - not come here to be told that they ought to give up because the class is unplayable or easily replaced.
The scout radar scans slightly slower - it is almost insignificant. You still know they are there with a very high degree of certainty. Is adding a recon dart to that as well likely to make any difference? Not really - maybe once in a blue moon it ends up helping somehow. Now, if the scout radar scanned a lot slower, to the extent at which you would be uncertain most of the time exactly where they were, then yes you would have so much of a point I would build a statue dedicated to how right you are. As it is, you are splitting hairs. It is like going from a resoltion of 1920 x 1080 to 1680 x 1050; most people don't notice that much of a difference, and 1680 x 1050 is just as capable of doing the job. Now, if we were going from 800 x 600 to one of those higher resolutions I would say the difference is drastic enough that they now do effectively different jobs. This is not the same as other class tools and alternative options - the differences in effectiveness are drastic there. They make sure that those class tools are not made to feel like additional fluff when one (or more) of those alternative options are around. Do you disagree with this? Do you disagree that there is a discrepancy in how our class tool is treated vs alternative options as to how the other class tools are treated vs alternative options? Why are you against flash/ESF radar being reduced in effectiveness? When I made that comment you hadn't attacked the argument on how the flash/ESF radar does the same binary function as the recon dart and thus when the flash/ESF radar is around the dart is made practically useless. Instead, you attacked the feasibility of having the flash/ESF radar around; which was not the argument I was making and was thus a straw-man argument. To add to this, you also highly implied that I thought the recon dart was weak and wanted buffs to it, which was very far from the truth. Instead I had explicitly commented on the alternative options being too strong and wanting them toned down. Later on, you switched to trying to attack my argument by arguing that something that does a binary job highly effectively is (somehow) weaker than something else that does the exact same binary job to pretty much the same effectiveness; and yes this is not now a straw-man argument.
ESF and a flash both need speed to survive. They are nice when they pass by, but their vulnerability when they slow down to act as a static radar is their weakness. Infiltrators do not need speed to survive and don't cost resources. We don't need others to get nerfed, we need our own abilities to get better.
Because it doesn't need to be reduced in effectiveness. You're entire stance is that the Scout preforms the Recon's role good enough that it can replace it - which I don't believe is true. It will do in a pinch if you don't have a dedicated Infiltrator in your squad much like Med Kits functionally replace the Medic aside from revives, but I disagree with the idea that it can replace the Recon Dart. This is absurd. Your entire point was that it effectively replaces the Infiltrator Recon Dart when it is available. Binary function or not you were (and still are) completely overlooking all of the negatives it possesses when compared to the Dart. I disagreed with your premise that it can replace the Dart and stated reasons for disagreeing similar to your own reasons for suggesting that the other tools could not be replaced. If that is a Straw Man then I will consider your respect for me gone. As for suggesting you wanting a buff to the Dart when you simply want a nerf to the Scout you’ll have to accept my apology for missing that. Though to be fair considering the prevailing opinion on this forum when referencing every facet of the class it isn’t such a wild claim to make.
Because my entire point didn't need to take this into account! It doesn't matter if you had to win the lottery to get a flash, the point is that when you have done this the recon dart (our class tool) is made redundant. They both perform the same binary function (continuously) - effective detection of the enemy within an area. If that is already being done there isn't much you can do to improve that. It is simple - is the enemy being effectively detected or not? If yes, then what the hell are you going to use the recon dart for? I feel like I am explaining basic maths here. Yes, I can agree that the scan rate could be limiting (and I actually proposed this as a possible solution before you brought it up), however, it currently is not. There is nothing slow about the scout radar scan rate. You can almost watch them take every step on the minimap. You are making a good argument for how it could be, but not for how it is. My original point, in a nutshell, is that the alternative options for our class tool perform the job to such an extent when they are present that our class tool is made redundant. I know you keep disagreeing with this, but every thing you have argued has either been straw-man or plain wrong: Can not have a high-uptime on flash/ESF scout radar. Straw-man; this isn't my point. The recon dart can be used in the same area and provide a greater benefit. Wrong; you have already detected people at such a high resolution that an even greater resolution provides no greater benefit. Was there something I missed? Is so, please state it again and I apologise for having missed it because it could be what is causing the confusion as to the conclusion of this issue. Just to clarify: I also think the "negatives" of the scout radar vehicles are extremely minor - the negatives exist, but they are often insignificant. This is very different to sunderers, MBTs, ect; these have high resource costs, long cooldown timers, are slow to bear, can not be taken every where that a flash can, and can not always be spawned from any vehicle terminal. Comparatively, it is very easy to have near 100% uptime using scout radar. Regardless, this wasn't my point and I am surprised you are still arguing it when I have pointed out that it is straw-man.
The scout radar is superior to the recon dart because you won't have to **** yourself by having to play as infiltrator. Also, saying that a flash is easily destroyable is being conveniently oblivious to the fact that it doesn't give any indications of its presence, you don't know where it is, you don't even really know if there's one around, you only have this disturbing feeling that everyone is wallhacking you and you won't know until you search every corner in a 100m radius.
Look, we’re getting nowhere here fast & I feel like we’re arguing more about the ‘rules of engagement’ rather than the actual game mechanics. It’s rather obvious neither one of us is going to budge on this for a variety of reasons. If you want to believe that the Scout Radar replaces the Infiltrator Dart that is fine. I've said my piece and have nothing more to add at this point.
This is the second time you've backed down after we didn't fall for your attempts to change the subject towards something opinionated rather than factual. So far, Astraka, the only example you're setting for these newbie Infiltrators is that ignorant faith is the only way to enjoy the class once you've come to a proper understanding of its place in the game. Of course we're not going to get anywhere when you refuse to approach this like an actual discussion. My goal here is to determine the truth, not to convince you that I'm right. So far, all you've done is oppose my idea of the truth without making a single attempt to change it. Do you think I care about your opinion on how significant the difference in pulse frequencies between darts and vehicle radar is? No. Show me a statistic that proves that the difference matters, or they are functionally the same. If picking up Infiltrators while they're cloaked is more valuable than picking up players who are standing still, the gameplay should reflect that, and you should be able to demonstrate as much. Of course, you shouldn't need to since both of us play the same game and should have roughly the same experiences, but when your claims don't match up with my gameplay experience, you'd better believe that I'm going to ask you for proof and accuse you of making **** up when you fail to deliver it. You think that the Infiltrator in its current state is important? Prove it. I can prove the opposite quite easily by accomplishing nearly everything you've claimed that the class is good at while playing a different class, so I doubt you're going to succeed, but you're not going to change my mind any other way. I'd love to take a crack at changing your mind, but that would require you to be open to the possibility that you could be wrong about any of this, and then we'd be having a real discussion rather than this mockery of one which has been going on for more than two pages already.
Function is very different from use in this game. On paper, Scout Radar is no better than the Recon Dart. In theory, Recon Darts are better than Scout Radar because they can travel through the air, cannot be destroyed and can be constantly replaced as long as the Infiltrator survives and has access to ammunition. However, in practice it is a very different story. In practice, I would take a medic or an engineer who could spam Scout Radar flashes in place of an Infiltrator dedicated to the job. The Medic can heal my squad after she places the Scout Radar, and the Engineer can keep his flash (and other things) repaired while keeping the rest of us full on ammunition. The Infiltrator...well, the Infiltrator can just place darts and shoot people. In practice, any other class with an SR equipped flash is more useful than an Infiltrator dedicated to something as insignificant as placing recon darts. There are other ways for Infiltrators to be effective besides placing darts, and an Infiltrator who sits in one spot for fifteen minutes spamming recon darts is a wasted player when an SR equipped flash would not only do the same job, but free up that player to do something more productive. Additionally, the Recon Dart is very easy to subvert. Every once in a while some Infiltrator will come looking for me after I put a bullet in their head. They'll fire off Recon Darts at my general location, hoping for a ping on their mini map (I use a silencer, so it's the only way they'd find me). As soon as I hear that Recon Dart anywhere near me, I freeze. I don't move. I don't cloak. I do nothing until it's gone. The reason is because Recon Darts only light up moving targets. If you don't move, the Recon Dart doesn't work. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Scout Radar lights up all targets, including those standing still, does so over a much larger radius and has a potentially limitless life cycle, unlike Recon Darts. If this is the case, why in the world would anyone take an Infiltrator dedicated to dart spam over another more useful class with an SR flash? The answer is simple; they wouldn't. Arguing about which is better in theory is pointless, because everything is balanced on paper. In reality SR completely replaces the Recon Dart because having a passive unmanned vehicle sitting safely behind a building and two Medics healing your squad as they push in is more useful than having an Infiltrator firing darts into the building and just one Medic tasked with keeping everyone alive. In this way the Recon Dart, and indeed the Infiltrator, is easily replaced by a passive system. This is a problem, and this is why Aimeryan and the Dr. are right.
I agree with you, Dr. Euthanasia - Astraka is just trying to split hairs on a lot of these issues. Fundamentally, what the infiltrator can bring can be brought to just the same extent by any other class, which is not true for those classes in turn. So, maybe the recon dart does scan a little faster, but it makes no practical difference - it is just splitting hairs on issues to simply bog them down with weight of text rather than actual results.
If you call refusing to post & read the same arguments for days on end on trivial matters backing down than sue me, I'm backing down. I don't have the patience or time to attempt to convince two people I should already know from experience have opinions set in stone that they're falsely marginalizing a very effective and important class. If you don't feel like you can contribute more to your team than another class or a Flash then that is something you will simply have to live with, or improve upon through practice. For myself and others, I will continue to provide my team support in the form of effective Radar coverage in addition to all of the other things I do and get regular praise for. And as far as 'proving' anything to you, I am well aware of how 'proof' of unpopular opinions is accepted in these forums... *after watching videos of people Infiltrating well-defended bases & large groups of people* Those guys were idiots! I could do that with a MAX suit! That was just luck! *after watching videos showing the Cloak can be used effectively in close quarters* What are they blind?! I always see Cloaked Infiltrators! This proves nothing! *after watching videos of an Infiltrator tearing throughtanks using hacking* That never happens! Those guys were idiots! 2x C4 would've stopped that nonsense! Turrets are always blown up! *after watching videos showing that the Cloak/Decloak sound isn't easily heard in big battles and is easily overlooked* I never miss the sound of cloaking Infiltrators in big battles! I could hear that from 300m away! *after watching videos showing that the Infiltrator is a very capable combat class* Those guys suck! That was all luck! You were using aimbots! I'd have to be a masochist to subject myself & my hard work to that brand of ignorance. Again, I've said my piece on this subject and feel that we're simply going to have to agree to disagree on this matter. Regardless of what you decide to say to this post or in this thread from here on out, I'm done. Reading what I already have makes me sick to my stomach.
