Higby wants us Tankers to come on PTS at 4 PST and give feedback

Contrary to what many people think, it seemed like they were very open to feedback and their opinions weren't set in stone. It is hard to tell what they will do.

If I had to guess they would probably do this.

Stabilization: will go live but may receive tweaking
Reverse speed increases: will go live but will be toned down
Magrider: will be buffed in some way, probably strafe speed
Velocity/Gravity changes: based on their stance and our feedback I don't think these will go live as they are now

I don't want to be too optimistic but I think they'll find compromises between what we want and what they envision.

its was the wrong time for me and couldn't really stick around.
Not that it mattered much they all use teamspeak so I had no idea what was going on,
you'd think they'd use their own in game system for voice.
ah well, was kinda interesting anyways, cuz I'm a sw engineer, just a totally different area of work,
so that kind of testing seems strange to me as usually I know what code I'm testing.

That is probably the single most unfortunate answer that could be given. MBT's are still seen as just disposable ground vehicles ready to be pushed into a grinder and killed meanwhile air only has to deal with "Deterrents".

A force multiplier is a claymore or a grenade. An MBT is just a disposable tool along with the rest? That's quite telling really, that's either how they really think of them or they just have no idea what to do with them since they never made them require a dedicated crew / or certification into and they can't control the spam. Either option is likely and both are not good.

A few points that I came away from the discussion with.

1) It sounds like they are going to go forward with the Stabilization and Acceleration buff (for vanguard), and see how that goes, but continue evaluating the rest on PTS. Which in my opinion is a good idea. Incremental changes to see how things are affected before making more changes. They also mentioned this a few times.

2) They seemed overall open to opinions, which was refreshing. Unfortunately, the Q/A on TS had a bit too much open venting about issues not specifically related to the changes to tanks on PTS. For an impromptu Q/A session with that many people in a single TS channel, it was okay... but could have been better.

3) They acknowledged that they are not happy with the faction abilities, but also acknowledged that it's not a simple "tweak here, tweak there" type of fix. They are going to continue to evaluate those and working on them... there is no silver bullet to fixing it.

4) Any Magrider buffs, ie: strafe speed or other buffs not related to velocity, drop will likely come AFTER the initial changes go through. So they are likely to get the stabilization in live, work on the goal of decreasing engagement ranges (however they determine how to do it) and then work on re-balancing the Mag vs the NC/TR.

I want to point this out as well. They didn't seem like they had anything in stone, more like these are working ideas.

Honestly, there was 120 guys in the TS channel. I feel like the ingame comms would have broken and there would have been even less control over the discussion. (Shaql did a valiant effort at trying to keep some order to the discussion)

The real point is that they were not testing the code. They were testing the game system changes. There is not "this works, this doesn't work" answer. It's more like, is this change fun? Does it help with combat? Is this too much of an advantage while dealing in the chaos of battle or not enough?

No real amount of small scale skirmishes or theorycrafting will get you the same feel as going up against other tanks in combat. The types of engagements we commonly come up against in live are quite varied. 2 (1/2 MBTs) vs 1 (2/2 MBTs).... Long-range hilltop to hilltop fighting.... Medium range mobile fighting..... Flanking actions (hitting a tank line from the side).... CQC Flanking actions (sneaking up to within 50m of the backside of a tank with the element of surprise), etc.

It is an extremely complex system with many moving variables.

The problem is, if all tanks now have reduced velocity / gravity that's one thing. The real issue is however how it affects infantry AV spam vs MBT's.

And with reduced MBT cannon effectiveness pretty much ALL AV would have gotten a moderate buff. "If they can't counterattack me as well anymore I can shoot at their tank a little bit easier/more"

That's a separate point though... this wasn't a real good test of how the changes affect tanks on live vs everything... it's how they affect tanks in Tank v Tank battle. There wasn't any infantry influence, there wasn't very many Libs in the battle, few ESFs, not many Sundies.... It's pretty hard to accurately simulate live conditions on test.

Not saying it isn't important, but its hard to setup real tests like that with limited amount of coordination.

This was effectively Tank v Tank battles.... It was a simulation of a tank zerg hitting another tank zerg. There were also a lot of cases of 2v1's, 1v1s, etc... all through the map. I was able to attempt 3 individual cases of 1v1 where I snuck up behind a Vanguard with my Mag (like I do all the time in Live) and test out the results.

I hope reverse speed doesn't go live anything like on the PTS it just made the tank fights ridiculous. The only change that seemed any good was the stabilization.

That's what I've said in every relevant air thread up there.

The current tank design is that of simple force multipliers. There is no dedicated pilot, and they have limited durability with decent firepower.

They will have to design a heavier tank /w dedicated pilot if you want something more than that.

Quite clearly the magrider will need the following at the least: 5kph added to racer chassis speed restored (possibly more so it can't be caught by a reversing vanguard lol) and probably greater speed at strafing.

The magburn is fine as it is. I love it.

After a night of pondering what enjoyment these proposed tank changes will bring to the game I have come to my own conclusion that these changes are a buff for Vanguards and nerf to Prowlers and Magriders and sets the NC as the defining faction.

From what i experienced on the PTS, the turret stabilization is the greatest improvement, and i could define this new feature as a "quality of life update" for the tankers (lightning, prowler, vanguard).

The improved reverse speed is an interesting idea but it needs to be tuned down, especially on the lightning.
The racer chassis is far superior to the rival chassis, those ones need to be balanced so both choices fit a specific playstyle.
For all the other changes (for the tanks), i am totally against and I find those ones not adapted to the real situation of the tanks on Auraxis.

These answers are lacking any real depth sadly. I wish you would have followed up with: "For what reason do you want to encourage tanks to get closer to targets?" In military uses, I'm pretty sure having a distance advantage was a big part in their role(besides the armor of course).

My guess is that with the arc fire it is more resource intensive for their servers, so limiting the distance would help keep that implementation to a minimum of increasing server cost/utilization... just a guess.

I come from playing BF3 and while I really do enjoy PS2, I must say tank fighting in BF3 was more fun... The added reverse speed is awesome and I think people will truly find this more fun. It allows you to have to play a "guard you butt" type of game, so strategically moving forward and not to get ambushed. As of now, you peak over a hill and see 3 tanks coming, your screwed pretty much because reverse or turning around is too slow, leaving your weak rear to get pummeled into oblivion lol

Just as a note, I play VS and just about hate the magrider as is, it needs tank vs tank improvements if anything. I used to be a top tank player in BF3, now I only use the magrider when my air resources are low or I see a lightning I can hope to get cornered, even a harrasser can be a major pain driving circles around the magrider.... If the distance of shots on tanks is nerfed, that means a fast lightning might not even be prey if I can only land a few hits before it is too far from range ((

P.S. Faster magrider reverse in massive fights == lots of dead infantry

We HAVE asked about the cert screen.. and it's been ignored in thread after thread.

Some people like to use the tank as a repair cert pinata.

What this means is that you pop out of the corner very,.. very far away at some safe spot only to mainly take dmg in order to repair and fire some off some lucky bonus shots.

Apart from the probably soon ex Lighting viper infantry farm, the tanks (there is only one real tank per faction to begin with,..) are good for nothing else imo that is.

Some one that thinks that people will just simply drive their vehicle into the grinder instantly after spawning must be pretty high,.. on a mountain.

Lately it happened that ive been throwing grenades out of a spawn into a close by building with a killstreak of maybe 15+ people?

It just shows how very bad some parts of the game are (some parts, not all), despite of the kills it felt sort of,.. just wrong!

The spawn and resource system&placement needs rethinking.

Performance ok, 64bit ok, Hosin soon tm, resource revamp soon tm,.. you can tweak all you want, I wonder if that will do any good. People are still probably waiting for some innovative and new.

How well was the implants feature received? Did anyone really like it, does it benefit the game more than anything else?

Its hard to pull a load when your running out of steam.

What were your results?
Did the vanguard effectively use the changes to its advantage in your opinion?
How were the fights different to those on live?

Pisses me off, but my OBS has been crashing PS2 since Sun night, otherwise I'd have footage of this. (I have since been able to get it working again if I run PS2 in 32-bit mode...but 64-bit still CTDs as soon as I start recording, but I figured that out late last night after the event. Sigh)

Anyway,

First case I remember outright:
1/2 v 1/2 solo fight.... Vanguard was 1/2 sitting on the ridge overlooking snake ravine (between VA and Allatum).. I came up right behind him at around 25-30m distance.. didn't have really good cover maybe a skinny tree (useless for a Mag to try and use as cover).... He was totally oblivious and didn't make a single move until my first volley hit.

I hit my first volley... he instantly pops shield (normal)..... and quickly started reversing while turning.... which caused his side armor to face me before I could get the second volley off. All while I was trying to actively maneuver to keep his rear to me (full racer strafe)... I couldn't... he was able to reverse turn and cut the angle. The second volley was a face/side fight (he hit me while turning).... he kept reversing away from me and I couldn't keep up in order to keep a side shot even. So the third volley was a Face/Face shot... at that point it was an even fight as without being able to break the shield (I was 1/2) and him being able to absorb my follow-up shots using full mitigation... I was toast. He was reversing away from me at the same speed that I was moving towards him. No way for me to even burst past him or even to the side of him... in other words, Magburn was useless in this fight.

If we both were 2/2, I think it would have been closer as the first volley would have taken a larger chunk and the combined firepower of a 2/2 AV mag could bust the shield on the second volley.... but it still would have been close if not a loss due to not being able to keep rear or side positioning.

Second case I remember distinctly:
1/2 v 1/2 solo fight again. Each of us was on one side of the Snake Ravine bridge (I was on SR side, he was on Allatum/VA side. I open up, land first and second shots while he is looking for me. He fires back, realizes he's at a disadvantage and pops shield, turns turret and starts reversing the hell out of dodge back towards Vanu Archives. At this point, he's going full speed towards VA (and his tank line... he was extended and alone by the bridge)... with his front facing me and i'm trying to chase (Magboosted across the bridge first, then turn towards him). At this point, he's halfway to VA already going full speed. I get a couple more shots on his front, but since I was 1/2... 2 side shots and 2 front shots doesn't do much. He's able to escape to cover and friendlies easily... the thing that frustrated me? He was going in reverse faster than I could go straight at him...

This would normally be a fight in which would turn into a slug fest with me being able to probably get around him for side/rear shots or stand off and fight a bit at medium range. He wouldn't have been able to totally disengage immediately. Since I had a couple shots of surprise, I probably would have won on the live server, but he was able to "not turn tail, but run away".

A Mag in that same scenario wouldn't have been able to reverse away for that long (would have hit a ditch or tree and got hung up due to reverse blindness). I had this happen a few times when I tried to use the reverse speed in similar situations. I hit a tree and rock much faster than I did before.

Third case:

Again 1/2 v 1/2 solo fight.

Vannie was rolling from Vanu Archives vehicle pad towards Peris on the Road. I had circled around Snake Ravine, Allatum, behind VA and was sitting in the rocks by the road. He didn't see me (I was running stealth) as he went up the road south towards Peris, Reagent Rock, etc. I slide in behind him about 75-80m behind him. I nailed him with a back shot, he jerked left around a tree, popped his shield and started maneuvering back and forth. I hit him with my second volley as he opened up on me with his first (hitting me while moving) Basically at this point I caught up to him and tried a boost past to get a rear shot as he popped his shield (I normally use shield time to get a better position if I know I can't break it)... I took a shot to the side in the maneuver. The last two shots were at about the same timing and I killed him, but was barely able to escape the fight (was burning... got taken out by a lightning and vannie that came by while I was starting to repair)

I mainly point this out to reinforce the fact that if we are to be pushed into closer fights, with more accurate shooting at close range... the Mag, even with a superior rear position is in a bad place. If I had tried to long-range fight this guy, he would have kept going or just turned around and i'd be at a severe disadvantage as he has equal DPS/TTK, but better damage mitigation between armor and the added shield.

Various other fights:

Most of the other fights/kills were multiple tank fighting multiple tanks... a lot of 1 shot kills of crippled tanks, a bunch of aggressive pushing way to far forward into 3-4 Mags and trying to back away, etc. A couple lightening kills where they were trying to circle me while firing, but I was still able to get a side shot on them, boost right behind them while turning and get a rear shot, etc. The normal CQC type of engagement where the turret stabilization helped them land a shot or two more than they might have without... but didn't make a huge difference in the fight. (mainly due to position)

I did notice that I had a bit more difficulty hitting turrets and the one AV mana turret I came across... but that's just learning the arch/drop changes a bit more and will come with time.


After that I switched to NC to try out the vanguard as Higby made a passive aggressive remark in TS about trying out the other factions weapons for a change. Which I then went on to kill a few Mags and a Prowler... nothing too spectacular though. It was nicer not having to deal with the bouncing as much, but I don't think that's a huge game-changer as much as the reverse speed and increased escapability turned a few of the fights. After that I stopped actively fighting to listen on TS to the Q/A.


TLR;

For me, this is how it fleshed out. I'm an aggressive flanking mag user and I only run thermal so I fight in the sub-200m ranges all the time, I use flanking to gain a positional advantage, etc. What I noticed was a substantial increase in the ability to negate all my effort in gaining a superior positional advantage... Without those advantages, the Mag feels completely sub-par in pure combat situations where both tanks are able to move and shoot effectively. If SOE is determined to push tanks into more fights like this... they are going to have to keep an eye on things because it will become apparent that it's pushing Prowlers and Maggies into the Vanguards power zone.

Great write-up there!

I think I might be a bit disappointed in any VS future tanking tho I am missing good tank fights already for the past few months since I started playing PS2(took a break from BF3 since PS2)... Oh well, ESF's are lots of fun, just will have to get my tank battle fighting else where. Otherwise give up my loyalty to VS and play NC too

This sounds really bad ... as in almost GU2 bad for mags. I hope they're going to reconsider the reverse speed changes/tone them down a bit, at least.

Thx Calisai for the detailed response, as much as I would like to test I get 350ms to US east haha.
Your first case was the most worrying to me, it seems like despite the magriders touted manueverability the buffed reverse turn technique will make it difficult to maintain a face/rear positional advantage.