here we are, it's pay to win.

Actually yes, it does. Not in any particular case but statistically, over time.

Really? You've seen that? Could you quote me the post? Because I sure as hell haven't seen anything like that.
Also, as I said previously, I don't think LoL has the bestest f2p business model evar and evar. I merely pointed out that Smedley likes it. I guess it bears repeating.
Also, saying that "LoL has blatant P2W aspects on part with what PS2 delivers" is saying that PS2 has blatant P2W aspects. Elementary logic, sweetie.

I said nothing of the sort. I believe that I explained my position clearly enough. Your failure to understand is therefore just that, your failure.

Perhaps it has escaped your notice, but those invectives were spoken in response to other invectives. It is the other people that I'm responding to that have no interest in actual discussion. I merely use the opportunity to practice my wit. I admit it's a bit immature, I should just ignore them.

See? That's exactly the kind of thing I should ignore rather than mock. So I shall. Good day, person incapable of understanding and uninterested in discussion.

So I guess that whole thing about most people not having 8 hours a day to grind kinda went over your head, huh?

Simplified example. 2 MBTs facing each other. He's a paid member, but I'm better than him. We fight. The fact that he's paid has nothing to do with the first fight. We have the same tank at the same relative strength. Since I'm better I destroy his tank. While he's respawning, I pop out of my tank. Since I'm good I tank as an engineer and repair my tank back to full health. We fight again and it's another even fight. He gets more chances to win because he's paid sure, but the fight itself is fair each time. That's light on the p2w scale.

Compare that to a blatant p2w. We both have our tanks but now his gun does more damage because he's paid and he has better armor. Not only do I have to be better, I have to be a lot better to win. His paid has given him an advantage in the fight. My skill is less important that his money. That's a blatant p2w scenario and heavy on the scale. Even if I can pull the exact same number of tanks that he does I'm at a disadvantage in every fight because he has paid. The paid element has made the fight unfair.

Which does ps2 resemble?

Is there no p2w elements in ps2? Of course not. The devs have admitted that directly but they want to keep the advantage minimal and that even unpaid players can have a fair fight. I think the quoted number is 10-20% advantage or so. Which I'm fine with in a f2p title. If it was 50%, well I would choose to either pay or not play. Ps2 doesn't force that decision but gives me a reason to sub.

Didn't I say like three times now that pointing to something else and saying "that thing there is even worse" doesn't make this thing here good? Yes, it could be worse. That doesn't mean it's good. Only that it's not the worst it could possibly be. I like this game. I don't want it to be "okay", "decent", "reasonable", or even "good". I want it to be f_cking EXCELLENT. And it isn't.

This is anywhere near P2W. You don't need medkits, MAXes, C4, or any variety of grenade or mine to dominate the other side. Even if you had zero infantry resources 24/7, you could take down pretty much anything with rockets, AV turrets, GLs, and medics replace the need for healing consumables. The majority of targets (hint, infantry) do not require consumables to kill. Heck, consumables are just there to make your job easier.

Anecdote: I have zero resource boosting and I'm currently sitting on about 40 C4, 10 flashbangs, 30 rez grenades, 15 AT mines, 10 claymores, 10 sticky grenades and 6 frag grenades. Mind you, I'm a C4-loving maniac.

Lets use pilots as an example. A great F2P pilot can keep his ESF alive long enough to get back to 750 resources. A bad pilot has %50 more resource gain. So instead of gaining 2 resources per tick, he gains 3. He is still a bad pilot.

Boosts only help people that waste resources, or lose them. With infantry resources, sure having more medikits or C4 might help, but if you use them smartly, that does not matter.

But you do make an interesting point, more resources are better, however they are a very small part of your performance. Mostly it comes down to skill. But I agree, if you have resource boosts you will have more chances to do better, but that does not mean you will.

I believe it's something like 20-30k? Don't quote me on that though, I'd go check some figures for you somewhere but it's 2AM and I can't be bothered to try and find the info from my brain .

Yes. And if you pay money, you get more resources and therefore more consumables. Which make your job easier. And that doesn't qualify as buying power... how exactly?

Yeah, but he can afford to be a bad pilot because he doesn't need to keep his fighter alive as long to make back those resources.

Well yes, that's what it's all about. Finally someone who's able to grasp the concept. And yeah, it won't make you win in any particular case. But over time you'll do better than someone of equal skill who doesn't have the boost. And isn't PS2 all about the long term?

If your income is junk (because your faction is warpgated/lost the relevant territories) it doesn't matter if you're an auraxium level member with a resource boost or completely f2p, you won't be getting squat.

Saying it repeatedly doesn't make it true. You still seem to be saying 'If there's any p2w elements, the game is p2w.' Which is both true and meaningless as it's true in all cases. There isn't a AAA game in the market that doesn't have p2w elements. Either subscribing or buying boosts gives you an advantage in all games (not counting the games you simply have to pay to play).

What everyone else in this thread seems to be saying is 'For a free game, PS2 has actually done a fairly good job of giving the free player a fair fight. If you think it's bad here, look at example x.' Your response is 'There shouldn't be any advantage in paying at all! The game is free.' Which brings me back to my first point of being naive. There has to be a revenue stream, and that revenue stream is generated by giving advantages in "Free" games. The only question is if Ps2 has preserved the integrity of the game for free players. While that answer can never be an absolute yes most seem to think that they've done a fairly good job of balancing the business model so it doesn't overly interfere with the gameplay. Which is all you can hope to see in a f2p title.

Dota 2.

Well then I guess I have higher standards than most.

The game is still technically in beta and considering Valve's track records of 'Games that will never be p2w' *cough TF2 cough* we'll have to see how long that goes for.

And it's a stretch to call Dota2 a AAA title.

He is right in the sense that right now with the resources the way they are, the people with subscriptions and Alpha squad have a HUGE advantage compared to FTP players or even those who do spend station cash.

They really needed to balance the resource costs around the assumption that people don't have these resource bonuses, otherwise we get the situation when, for an example, I can pull 2 or 3 tanks for every 1 my FTP team mates can pull, even if we are both just as effective.

While its not completely a P2W in the Traditional sense, its still too punishing for F2P players.

It's because the resource system doesn't make sense at all for the game really. I mean, you get less resources for loosing territory. It's a diminishing returns nightmare. It never really did provoke what it needed to provoke in the player base. I honestly wish they had never put it in the game tbh. It really interferes with better meta-game ideas. I mean, does anyone really play the resource hexes in an attempt to obtain or cut off resources? Is that something that people consider when determining what you'll attack/defend? Cause that's what is supposed to happen for the meta-game...

now I may be misunderstanding you but are you saying that WoW and BF3 are P2W?

because I don't think thats what P2W means.

PS2 might be moving towards P2P but not P2W
apparently SOE has recently made 'acquiring resources' a thing, so they may need to balance the boosts accordingly. but again that doesn't make it P2W

whats next game are P2W because someone payed for a hack?

It's been pay to win since day 1 pal.

planteside 2 is not a free to play game,

It's a paid subscription game that you can opt out of paying, and take five times as long to get stuff for really

[quote="C
. GG.[/quote]

Every time I see your .gif at the end, it makes me wish being an LA was EXACTLY like that.

Wow, this thread has completely devolved into "omg I can't play the game the way I want to". So assuming that the devs bow down to your great wisdom Sordid, after they change subscribers to only gain xp/certs quicker you'll be on that bandwagon or championing the crusade to end that also since it allows them to get weapons, attachments, and unlocking C4 and the likes faster. People like you will never be satisfied and that is the beginning of the end, sooner or later you'll quit and leave all of us who love this game for the most part worse for wear because you played your part in making it a cess pool. You are exactly the type of person that this game, nay this world can live without. Good day mate.

So it doesn't stop explosive spam but it limits the amount of explosives you can spam? Well that makes sense.

I'm MAX whoring it lately so I make sure that when I'm not in a MAX, I'm in a class that doesn't guzzle down infantry resources, like a medic. So long as I'm careful to use my revive grenades only for the greater good of a push, I'm great. I'm a tank at distance and useful to have around, and my grenades are free (UBGL on the GR-S ) Just have a fun "zero resource use" option in mine and you're good. You get resources for getting experience/kills too so farm up.

Not pay to win. You can just wait for a moment. Now on the other hand this sucks for casual players who just log in for a few moments then can't get anywhere unless in a squad (half of the players in PS2 play solo).