Engineer improvements from a real life combat engineer.

Engineer improvements from a real life combat engineer.

I’m an engineer in Planetside mostly because I was an engineer in real life. While I see some similarities, there are a few things about the class that just seem to miss the point. The primary function of combat engineers is mobility and counter-mobility. Basically, we’re the guys that create and breach obstacles, build and blow up bridges, bunkers and roads and do all this with some serious heavy ordinance; most of the time before the enemy ever gets there. The three main ways CEs do their job are fixed defensive positions, obstacles and mines and breaching.

*Fixed Defensive Positions*

Turrets

First off, I’ll address the mana turret, since it’s the most broken; and by that I mean useless. I’ve spawned probably a hundred of these suckers (or more) and I have barely been able to hit anyone, let alone kill them, at POINT BLANK RANGE. Now I realize I’m not the best shot on Earth, but come on! A target is 10 meters away and nothing? Seriously? I like the idea of the turrets, in theory. It’s very common for combat engineers to create fixed positions for defensive fire. HOWEVER, the big difference here is in usefulness. While the mana turret mounts a paintball gun, CEs mount heavy machineguns. That is what those turrets and defensive positions are for. Think TMG-50, NC6 Saws and SVA 88s.

One of the other things we got to play with as combat engineers is the TOW and Javelin missile systems. For those who aren’t familiar, these are hard core guided anti-tank missiles. There’s one big restriction to the system, it’s NOT MOBILE. Think Annihilator upgrade for a turret. Again, missiles NEED to be upgrades for the turrets. Without these upgrades, Engineers are useless in front line units for anything but ammo camels and grease monkeys.

Simply put, the turrets NEED to be able to be upgraded with the same machineguns as the Heavy Assault class, for the same cost in certs and station cash, of course. Or, at the very least, there needs to be a serious accuracy and damage improvement as well as anti-tank and anti-air upgrades of some kind. Just mounting the already existing weapons is not only realistic, but I would think a LOT easier on the programmers as well.

Bunkers

Of course, no engineer worth his salt would be without a fortified position in a defensive operation. I suggest giving the engineers the ability to create fortified positions, if given time. I don’t see anyone digging trenches and building bunkers under enemy fire, however I DO see where they should be able to do so at a base after taking it while fortifying the position. These bunkers would be fixable with the nano tool. The bunkers would cost 300 resources and be at least as durable as a tank or emplaced gun position is now. The cost would limit the number of bunkers an engineer could deploy. These would be permanent emplacements until destroyed. For game balance (and to take a load off the servers) enemy units would not be able to occupy a bunker. When the enemy gets control of area, all enemy bunkers immediately self-destruct (killing everyone inside as well). This would stop people from building impregnable fortresses that just keep on expanding.

The bunker would basically be just a fortified fighting position for infantry (not MAXes) who could enter it like any other building and fire through the narrow firing slits. With certs and station cash you could buy weapons for the bunker but I wouldn’t go so far as to allow the weapon upgrades that infantry can get. You get a BASIC light machine gun, mortar, grenade launcher, whatever, but you can’t upgrade it in any way.

*Mobility and Counter-mobility*

Mobility and Counter-Mobility 101

The basic premise of counter-mobility is to deny the enemy’s freedom of movement. This is done in a number of ways in the real world including mines, razorwire, obstacles and earthworks. The idea is to deny the enemy’s movement in areas you don’t want them (like your base, outpost, ammo dump, motor pool, etc) and funnel them into places you do want them (called kill zones or kill boxes). Once you’ve funneled the enemy into these kill boxes, you mass all your firepower and blow them to pieces.

Mobility is exactly the opposite. You want to make things easier for YOUR guys. This includes improving roads, clearing obstacles and minefields and breaching fixed defenses. You can do this in a lot of different ways, but C-4 is the combat engineer’s best friend for a VERY good reason.

Obstacles and mines

Contrary to popular belief, minefields are NOT designed to kill people and vehicles. They are not an offensive weapon; they are used for area denial. If given the choice of running through a minefield and skirting around it in a safe zone, where do you think most people would go? Exactly, the “safe” zone (see also kill boxes above). Sure, mines are deadly and they do cause massive casualties sometimes, but mostly they’re just a deterrent as they can be breached and/or destroyed.

The mines need to be changed from a single mine to a mine field. Each mine dropped actually covers an area 10 meters in diameter. It’s also persistent, meaning it can kill more than one target (up to 5 I’m thinking) and will remain so long as it’s not disturbed. Minefields can be cleared by engineers (using their Nano tool) and detonated by high explosives (like a couple grenades, C-4, HE tank rounds, mortars and such). This is actually one of the primary functions of combat engineers in real life, setting up and breaching mine fields. We use a variety of methods from literally poking around in the dirt with a stick to the Mine Clearing Line Charge, or MICLIC, which basically fires a high explosive sausage into a mine field and detonates all the mines, clearing a path for vehicles and infantry to pass. This would be reflected in the use of high explosive weapons already in the game.


Also, the two mine limit is ridiculous. There should be no limit to the amount of mine fields an engineer can have out at one time. Yes, this sounds overpowered, but just wait, there’s more. Make the mine fields like 200 resources each and don’t let people stock pile them like we can with mines now. This would limit the amount anyone could have and would force you plan BEFORE a fight in order to be really effective. Also it would eliminate the “drop it and blow it” method of assaulting tanks. That’s what C-4 is for!

Engineers would also be granted the basic ability to detect enemy mine fields. They would have to be on foot to do it, and not running, but if an engineer gets within say 30 meters of a mine field it will highlight on his screen, or something similar, letting him know it’s there. He can then disable it with his Nano Tool or by chucking a C-4 charge at it.

I would also like to see engineers have the ability to spawn those tank blockades we see everywhere in the game. These would be destructible however with high explosives and C-4 (kinda like in real life). I’d also like to see the ones already in the game world destructible (and repairable) as well.

*Breaching Actions*

As I’ve already said, C-4 is a combat engineer’s best friend. With it we can do everything from cook lunch to blowing an artillery bunker to kingdom come. C-4 is the single most useful explosive on the planet. In the hands of combat engineers is just plain devastating. We are trained to use the stuff to create custom charges to quite literally blow a door in the side of a building, destroy tank traps in place, create shaped charges to take out tanks and also as party gags by crafting a Frosty the Snowman with a blasting cap for a nose. Well … ok, I wasn’t trained for the last bit, but it does work. ;-) For breaching ability, engineers would basically be able to destroy anything with C-4. The game mechanic is already there for just about every basic application, except that we would have to include damage to things like the bunkers I mentioned above and obstacles and mine fields. Also, you could blow up generators in one shot and emplaced guns as well. Combat engineers would know exactly where to put the charges for maximum damage, so we can assume engineers in game would know that as well. The caveat is that you can’t throw the stuff. You need to run up to the target, plant the charge, and get the hell away before you blow it. If you’re too close, you die in the explosion too. Too bad, so sad.

Well, that’s my two cents about engineers from a real world perspective. Questions, comments?

Lot of points here that I have to echo. MANA Turret is poo and I only get kills with it in very rare and situational cases. The vast majority of the time I use it as deployable cover, but it isn't even very good at that. (too narrow, returning fire exposes me too much, hitting the turret gives me grief) I would much rather have a functional and customizable emplaced death dealer, or a deployed shield that provides excellent cover for one or two men. Not a single piece of scrap that does neither very well.

Placing a turret should be a tactical decision. Give up mobility and become a high profile target, and in exchange gain superior firepower. Currently we gain nothing that I can't do more effectively with my carbine.

I would also love if the cert cost for C4 and AT mines were swapped for engineers and the mines made useful for area denial/deterrence. As it is I exclusively use the AT mines as if they were C4, and pretend the actual C4 didn't exist. (too expensive to justify while I have other goals, AT and AP mines do the same job)

My biggest problem with the mana turret is the large gaping hole in the middle of the shields. Any experiences player coming around the corner knows to aim between the two big glowy things for a free headshot kill. I don't mind getting shot from above, flanked from the side or back, or taken out from a grenade thrown at my feet. What annoys me is dying to the guy right in front of me. Huge design flaw. The energy shield should also protect your face.

Although I think building entire bunkers is a bit much for a PS2 engineer, being able to drop a defensive shield (aka something other than the Mana turret) would be handy. Throw down a disk, it shoots out a chest hight energy shield that can only be damaged by c4, rocket launchers or vehicle explosive rounds. It would allow you to add more cover to a room/tunnel/doorway and impede enemy advancement in certain situations.
Maybe make it a replacement option for the mana turret, or have if be a resource cost drop utility item ( I am leaning more towards the former)

Some interesting ideas that make me giggle

The most interesting fact though is that i can verify you're an engineer (as i am too ;P)

Cheers OP !

The combat engineers in your post are much more badass than what this game gives us... so i agree with all of your suggestions!

Going back to planetside 1, if I remember correctly.
Engineers could place up to 20 mines at a time.
Engineers were capable of placing fully autonomous turrets called spitfires. They would stick to any surface
Engineers mannable turret provided more cover and dealt vastly more damage.
Engineers were capable of placing tank barricades.
Engineers were capable of placing motion sensors that stuck to any surface.

Please stop. Engineer is the strongest and most complete class in the game along with the Heavy. Neither of these classes need anything added, they're perfect how they are. MANA turret may need a little tweaking, that's all.

Some very good suggestions here. Breachable walls were in the old HL version of Team Fortress, maybe even earlier.

With the MANA turret you certainly can do good work but only in certain places. Like one time I put one at the top of the stairs to the side in the garage of an AMP station. Line of sight combined with covering fire from friendlies meant that I effectively denied use of the stairs and got several kills.

But another game that I have played engineer in is Mount & Blade Napoleonic.

That game has things like destructible walls and bridges which as a start means that demolition is more useful. Add to that the ability to place and construct things like sandbags and earthworks means you can fill holes in defences.

Another thing it has is water and since water ruins cartridges the infantry don't want to swim so you can build makeshift bridges with earthworks and planks. There are also prefab bridges that you can use your engineer tools to deploy.

The final job they have is to build things like ramps and platforms to allow infantry to jump over defences.

In that game you feel more like an engineer. Something like a crown defence would be more dynamic if you had defending engineers laying down sandbags and attacking ones putting down destructible jump pads.

There's no 2 AP mine limit, you can carry 3 if you spend a fortune on the Pouch (also allowing up to 5 AT Mines and 4 C4).

But already I think the Engineer is the most fun class in the game, 2nd only to the Heavy in overall usefulness so I'd rather see other classes improved before addressing this one.

@OP I totally like your ideas, but I guess the engineer is already one of the most played and most versatile classes (probably only rivaled by the HA) . Basically everyone who pilots a vehicle is engineer, because being able to repair is almost mandatory for pilots (how often do you see a repair-sunderer and how many use it?). Yes being a pilot is not what the engineer is about IRL but in the year 2800+ it seems like that.

So I don't expect SOE to come up with even a fraction of these ideas.

What I would like to see is some sort of deployable defense, like a force field. That comes closer to the engineer's original idea of providing defensive earthworks and structures. IIRC the engineer in Global Agenda could use such a thing and it was great. Digging trenches is too old-fashioned for the future, as are camouflage uniforms that actually cloak you.
I would switch my mana turret (or even mines) for a deployable force field anytime, as the latter is actually useful for my team, while the former would only benefit me, if it was useful at all.
There could be several versions: one that allows shooting through from one side, but loses health by any type of damage, and another one which is more solid and is only prone to splash damage awhile it shrugs off small arms fire completely.

And if they gave the engineer a fraction of it's PS1 capabilities back, I wouldn't complain.

But I don't expect anything beyond this.

While I agree that the game would be better with many real life Engineer applications I feel it would be more appropriate to add the demolition to Infiltator or Light Assault as thats stuff thats also taught to espionage/special forces. Im more leaning towards Infiltator as well as buffing the currently useless Cloak but thats an argument for another thread.

Currently Engineer's really need no work other then Mana turret buffs. Fortifications would be interesting but they would have to be only deployable in fixed locations to keep framerates down.

AGreed so much.

The MANA Turret really needs to give more cover. Right now its just a glowing headshot target. It has ZERO excuse to not have a 'lid' on top. Its already so vulnerable to grenades, rocket launchers and flanking. It doesn't need a sniper weakness.

"You see a tree. I see a forest"

I like everyone’s idea of a deployable energy shield instead of bunkers. It fits the game theme better than hard concrete bunkers. Make it a one way shield, ie you can shoot out but not in, make it repairable and we’re on to something. Maybe a deployable dome say 3 or 4 meters across with the lock out options that vehicles have so that you can lock it out to only your squad (cause hey, who cares about everyone else, ya know? ;-)

Waffle1 is on to something. The Planetside 1 engineers sound a LOT more like actual combat engineers. It would be nice if they returned that capability.

Paper planes, I have to disagree, for all the reason in my original post. Engineers need tweaking to be … well, engineers! Likewise, there’s a few things that need to be done with infiltrators/snipers as well (my other military fascination). I’ll put that in another post.

Cinnamon has the right idea. You place the turret, mines, bunkers, whatever where you DON’T want the enemy to go. This is what combat engineers do for a living. Then you send infantry and tanks the other way to pulverize the enemy. This is pretty much military tactics 101 today.

uhm... NO to shoot through shield walls... a big fat HELL no.

Deployable shield should block shots BOTH ways, and be impassable to all units... or maybe allow infantry to pass through if it gets abused for blocking

Also, still waiting on my AV Mana Turret.

Great post. Prior service here and engie in game. People think engies can be overpowered, so improvements / expansions must be balanced, but as the OP said, right now engies are just grease monkeys and ammo droppers. Hardly what an engineer should (and could) be.

I like a lot of these ideas. Some people feel the engie has enough toys already, but there is almost no one that is good at fortifying things, and engie would be perfect for the job. I think that a lot of problems with metagame come from the lack of ways to dig in and fortify. One time I knew the enemy was about to assault a biolab, but all I could do was put down a pair of mines, fix the worthless base turrets, and drop a beacon on the roof.

To balance out the new tools for the engie other classes would need some new stuff. The infiltrator for example could get a mine field detect device, or be able to hack mines. The heavy would probably get a bit of new stuff to counter defenses as well. Changes to strategy alone would be a boost to the light assault, as they would be able to avoid many of the defenses that would stump other classes. If the medic got a placeable triange (suggested in medic forums) that would help them for defense. The MAX could get arm shields (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-arm-shield.85775/#post-1168808) which would be great for both attack and defense.

Unfortunately, I don't think everything listed can (and will) be in the game. Aircraft, for example, don't even have a basic form of radar (that, realistically, should come standard to every plane). 'sides, the game isn't supposed to be entirely realistic; there's America's Army for that.

That said, I would like to see a few more options made available to the engineer (hell, any class could always benefit from additional options, not necessarily a major alteration to gameplay that is forced down everyone's throat) that would enable the class to play more like an engineer and less like a grease monkey/ammo dropper.

yeah it would be rly nice if they would made egnineer class more engineer like. At moment im just some crazy mine throwing madman, rushing trough the enemy lines to confront the sunny and blow it after some couple of tries with a big yehaaaaw plic plic switch to gun shooting around with a big boom in my back and then drop with a mad grin....

i think this would be more suitable to the light assault but since 2 c4 doesnt destroy a sunny... and c4 even cost more than AT-mines... and also c4 takes whole 6 secs more to plant and blow.... im always hammering my buttons like some **** *** dog with those c4 ****.... and why the **** cant i throw it at least 3-4 meters to the front of me? I can understand Mines shouldnt be thrown it could be lethal. but C4??