Shotgun Changes Are A Bit Extreme

There is no pleasing me because it shows exactly what I pointed out?
Shotguns at range arent impossible to kill with, they just have such long TTK's its rarely worth it. The RNG spread and damage falloff increase so much that virtually any other weapon is more useful beyond that range.

And yes I already checked your video and there is ONE instance that took 3 shots.

No it doesnt in any way make dummies good examples. You have a perfect scenario with ADS (less COF growth per shot) no need to lead some of the slowest infantry ammo in the game (in other words center mass shots is dumb) and your "just spray and pray" argument is exactly the problem with shotguns: relying on RNG to get a few hits but miss more pellets is not a good way to handle anything. That is like saying you shouldnt have trigger discipline and just hold the trigger so you can rely on RNG and less aim to get kills. Hell start every battle with jumping and never ADS because its better right!?!

No. Using the point blank Heavy as a reference for how long it takes to hear the killsound start and playing at 0.25 speed there is only 1 kill that took less hits, bringing 1 kill to 3 hits. The rest you can even see the last shot hit before the kill registers.

Also if you watch you can see how ludicrously large that spread is, with shots going far off target. It truly is RNG and at best you can improve your odds by landing the shots on the leadpoint of the center of mass.

This is also why we desperately need some information on the average range weapons kill at. The devs seem to have access to it, they make references it in their patchnotes. Seeing the average range of shotguns and the impact of flachettes for example would be valuable in gauging what it does to the effective range. Considering the Barrage is quite literally worse off rin 100% of the situations and can at best equal the TTK of a non-flachette shotguns it should be clear that this feature isnt exactly well designed and not designed to be favorable.

Hell here's a short breakdowm:
Both pump-actions lose their OHK abilities unless you headshot, with the "heavy" pump-action getting equal pellets as the lighter one.
The standard semi-auto has no advantage ever.
The second semi-auto starts at half its damage falloff but has more damage from 12m distance and onwards
The automatic shotgun has an advantage after 9.5m, which would make it the only shotgun that would have some advantage at range (completely offset by having 25% more pelletspread). You could argue its better within the 10 to 15m bracket, but at 15m that 4 pelletspread is already BIG. Not exactly a huge advantage but its there.

And all of them have less hit chances meaning more RNG because the missing pellet(s) could have been the one that hits.

So best case scenario its useful for two shotguns, ignoring that by that time RNG takes a heavy toll due to pelletspread. So yeah, flachettes is a great self-nerf and not the giant "we can easily kill across a room" that people make it out to be.

After playing around with them and dying lots to them, they're still super strong. You can still kill stuff within 10m very easily provided you have the crosshair placement and breakdancing skill, the Smart Choke + Athlete + ADSing right before shooting strat is still as good as ever but instead of 20m OHK you're looking at >15m.


IMO they should've given shotguns worse pellet spread while ADS and much worse CoF while jumping. Or alternatively balance shotguns around 2HK for pumps, 3HK for everything else but increasing the RoF and associated stats.

Kind of surprised they haven't touched the Baron or semi-autos but it's probably because of Outfit Wars performance, not because of live play.

To add to this:

• Shotguns have 0.75 ADS or can hipfire, making them harder to hit. Most importantly due to high burst damage and DPS you can sprint continuously and do the dumbest movement imaginable right before you can OHK/2HK.
• Peeker's advantage and clientside massively favors high burst damage weapons peeking corners, so in these scenarios it's not rare to kill someone before taking any damage.
• Shotgun users don't have to worry about CoF and recoil, almost everyone else does. Related to this, shotgun users can bunny hop and do other shenanigans with movement and suffer barely any accuracy penalty within 5m while other weapons max out their CoF by doing this.

Shotguns are stronger than they look on paper.

If you want to prove to everyone that its not just crazy ramblings then why dont you go take a closer look at the video and provide some screenshots or w/e with the 3rd hit marker on the HA as well as the 4th ones on the 20m dummies?

I wont be waiting for it though because there is no 3rd hit marker on the HA or 4th hit markers on the 20m dummies since they died after 2 and 3 hits respectively, dead objects do not produce hit markers as there is no damage being done.



Its a bit surreal to be providing evidence and then have you make **** up anyway as if its not just a simple task of looking at the evidence to prove that you are full of it.

I totally agree, in fact most the balance adjustments were due to “community feedback” AKA wrel’s buddies on redditt. Most players like me don’t provide feedback, we just pay our membership fee and enjoy the game. But these changes are way out of line. Not just shotguns but almost all balance adjustments including the Gauss SAW nerf (its model has been the same for 10 years but it needs nerfed now? Lol). Just more indication this is not a dev team anymore. Changes are made with no data, just nonspecific “feedback” from small but vocal members of the community. Wrel should know better. Oh well, canceled my membership and onto a competitor game. Will check back in a year or so if the game is even still around.

Shotguns have been relatively untouched for many, many years. Even before the Arsenal update. Now they get a couple of new attachments and things felt good for the first time in years. Yet suddenly people start screeching about how it's a problem?

The Devs intervened once again upon a subject that didn't need to be touched. Furthermore, a half-way intelligent person would've just reverted the new Shotgun attachments to a previous state if the new features upset the "balance".

But what did the Dev's choose to do? Instead of reverting the new attachment changes, they instead start poking Shotguns with a stick and disrupt their stats which have already been established and settled into for years.

How indecisive can a person be?

[Test Server: Discussion] Shotgun Adjustments Feedback
[Test Server: Discussion] Semi-Auto Shotgun Balance

Roll back the Shotgun changes to the previous state. Keep the Smart Choke. Remove Flechette Ammo. Shotguns are meant to be a short-range CQB weapon. A Shotgun's damage dropoff and slow rate of fire is what makes shotguns increasingly impractical beyond 10 meters.

I just wish semi-auto shotties were less annoying to use and inferior in every regard. At least they feel like it, if they numerically are not, please let me know with the according numbers, and surprise me.

Semi-Auto shotguns fire 6 pellets at 100 damage each which drops off at 5 or 8 meters depending on the Shotgun. Meaning they can do a total of 600 damage in a single shot.

You must cause 1000 damage to kill an infantryman. But of course... That's not counting a Heavy Assault's Nano Mesh Generator overshield. If I did the math correctly, I believe a Heavy Assault's NMG overshield should add an additional 500 points damage absorption. Meaning that Heavy Assault players would have 1500 HP.

Regardless, lets presume the following:
You are using a standard Semi-Auto shotgun that does 100 damage per pellet.
You are 5 meters from your target, and are able to cause max damage.
You fire 2 shots towards your targets chest, however you miss 3 of 12 pellets.
You only cause 900 of 1000 damage needed, meaning you didn't kill your target.
You must fire a 3rd shot to finish your target off.

So if you ever miss more than 3 pellets and/or your target is nearly 20 meters away, then you will always need to fire 3 shots to kill a standard infantry target. And you will always have to fire a minimum of 3 shells to kill a Heavy Assault with their NMG overshield on.

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You want an example of an ideal Semi-Auto shotgun? Here's a new Heavy Semi-Auto Shotgun template I formulated.

• Name: TRK-6 Knockout (TR)
• Type: Heavy Semi-Auto Shotgun
• Rate of Fire: 170 RPM
• Damage 125 @ 5m / 50 @ 20m
• Muzzle Velocity: 200 m/sec
• Reload Speed: 3.8 sec / 2.6 sec
• Ammunition: 6 / 54
• Pellet Count: 6 / 3.5
• Firemode: Semi-Auto

(NOTE: Do understand this weapon template completely disregards the Dev's current unwarranted nerf parameters and replicates the previous damage values that have been on live PS2 servers for years.)

This essentially creates a Semi-Auto that has point-blank power similar to the pre-nerf Auto-Shotgun template, while also having low-velocity projectiles that quickly incur an incredible amount of drag and rapidly lose their momentum beyond point-blank ranges.

This means that anything closer than 5 meters gets hits with the Knockout, but anything beyond 5 meters will result in missed pellets paired with a sharp decline in damage. This is a CQB ambushers weapon.

Well as already discussed a little, the standard variant of semi-autos(Barrage/Mauler/Thanatos) only loses 16 damage over range making it fairly powerful at range even without Flechette ammo as even with minimal damage each pellet does 84 damage.

84x6 = 504 damage
So its able to 2 shot up close even if you miss 2 pellets giving it some margin for error while still being able to 2 shot "across the room" if all pellets hits. It also has 8-10 shots per reload while the auto only has 6-8.


The other type of semi-auto(Haymaker/Sweeper/Nova) is a bit harder to make a case for since the main advantage is basically "it has more ammo!" but its just 2 more than the first type, 10-12.... and its maximum damage range is 8m instead of 5m but loses 33 damage over 12m down to its minimum of 67 damage at 20m.

Basically if you know you will be fighting in really close range or flanking into groups of enemies then the second type is better since what will likely get you killed when you get behind a group of enemies is you running out of ammo before they are all dead and with 10-12 you can at least fairly comfy kill 4 even with some taking 3 shots to take down.

The extra ammo does also make the penalty of Flechette a bit less since dumping 3 shots on someone is more sustainable when you have 12 shots to use but in 9/10 fights I would probably want the first type of semis rather than this.