Shotgun Adjustments Feedback

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by Shadowflare, Nov 5, 2022.

  1. Shadowflare

    Can we stop trying to turn shotguns into exotic melee weapons so the only gameplay option is to go back to bushido heavy (LMG)?

    Planetside 2 is a mass scale team game. If you round a corner first (with your team) you may be the guy to eat a buckshot and go down. Your teammates kill the shotgun guy before he can even cycle his gun, rez you and keep moving.

    The majority of the outcry has been from heavy players who rambo into enemy positions solo and get mad when a "no skill player" 1 taps them by putting a shotgun in their mouth, and that's assuming you catch them with all the pellets at the 8m range with the glacially slow pumps, and that they didn't anticipate you by turning on a shield before rounding a corner, in which case not even all the pellets will save you from 3-4 tap LMG death before your gun can cycle.

    With the suggested change, giving minimum range damage boost does nothing useful (63 damage x 11 pellets, 693 vs 550 if you hit will all pellets, which is difficult even with smart choke and flechettes starting at about 13m), and the max damage change makes it so that your max damage if all pellets hit is 1100, barely enough to kill in the "sweet spot of 5m" (which is hugging distance) if the enemy has an ASC, one pellet off target and you're dead before you can rechamber.
    Additionally, this change will render flechettes almost completely useless on pump actions unless they start -adding- pellets.

    Please consider that this shotgun nerf has been requested by a very vocal minority. For the first time in years shotguns are finally in a very useable state, these changes will relegate them back to the closet.
    • Up x 1
  2. mlmayo

    I don't think the shotguns needed any tweaking. I started playing shotguns exclusively, and I've discovered it's not any different than any other weapon in close quarter battle situations. The single 1200 damage shotguns can kill in 1 shot, but the long reload means you die if nv1. Also, a miss usually means death unless you can find cover (in which case you'll die way behind cover from server latency and hitbox lag). The other shotguns are fine and take 3+ shots to kill a heavy unless you get a headshot + critical. It is false than a "no skill" player can consistently "1 tap" a veteran. It's a myth perpetuated by people that don't commonly use shotguns.

    Edit: come to think of it, what DOES need a nerf are those 334 hitting semi-auto guns with ZERO damage drop. It permits engagements where you can get 1-tap but not be in a CCB situation. They fire faster than semi-auto sniper rifles too and have better optic options.
  3. Amador

    I had performed several revisions regarding this post. This being my final assessment of the situation at this time. The first half is what I shall call "The Rant" followed by the final part being "The Solution".

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    THE RANT:
    • Planetside 2 is launched, Shotguns remain virtually unchanged and mostly underwhelming for years. No one complains.
    • Years later, Infiltrator are given shotguns by Sony Devs suddenly. Outrage ensues.
    • Shortly thereafter, Infiltrator Shotguns are removed in response. Peace restored.
    • A.S.P. comes out, Shotguns now available as backup weapons to some classes. No one complains.
    • Arsenal Update comes out, Shotguns given new attachments and improved for the first time in years. Shotgunners are delighted.
    • Nanoweave Armor nerfed, Shotguns overall damage isn't even adjusted. No one notices or complains.
    • More time passes by, Shotguns remain in their current state. No one notices or complains.
    • Month ago, Outfit Wars show off how players may use Shotguns in certain circumstances to succeed. The buzz begins.
    • Recently, some players realize shotguns as viable and incorporate them into CQB gameplay. Whispers of untold power spread.
    • Yesterday, Heavy Assault mains realize that Shotguns threaten their meta gameplay. HA mains cry panic on forums.
    • Today, DBG Devs kneejerk react by poking Shotguns with the Nerf bat on PTS. Devs ruin former improvements.
    • Tomorrow, PTS changes are fully reverted. Devs simply remove Flechette Ammo from game. Balance is restored.
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    THE SOLUTION:
    1. Revert all changes for Shotguns as observed on the PTS and restore to previous Live state.
    2. Completely remove Flechette Ammo from the game, for Shotguns.
    3. Completely redesign Slug Ammo to incorporate former perks of Flechette Ammo, for Shotguns.
    4. Slug Ammo will now supercede and replace Flechette Ammo - with pros and cons. Firing a single projectile.
    5. Slugs now have increased range, assuming the former 3x range perk of Flechette Ammo.
    6. Slugs now have reduced velocity, matching normal Pellet (Buckshot) at 300 or less, at 250 or 200 m/sec with testing.
    7. Slugs now have increased gravity and drag with notable bullet drop at 50 to 100 meters. Similar to Hunter QCX Crossbow.
    8. Slugs will have far better range in a single shot, but will cause less overall damage compared to Pellets (Buckshot).
    9. Slugs may be given a faster RPM/rechamber time or simply given increased Ammo Capacity to reflect damage output.
    10. Slugs should now out-perform Scout Rifles at close range - if you have the skill to lead and judge the drop of the Slug.
    11. Slugs will be adjusted with leniency as necessary to ensure that performance meets reasonable player expectations.
    12. Bring forth these alterations and changes for Shotguns and roll out upon PTS for feedback.
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    We don't need to break everything about Shotguns, we only need to remove the things that create the problem - being Flechette Ammo. This is because Flechette Ammo extends the range of Shotguns three times beyond the suitable range which Shotguns should be limited to. This is a no-brainer.

    Package this and put it on the PTS before Shotguns are damaged further by wanton and unnecessary changes.

    There's your Feedback.
    • Up x 1
  4. AchingScaphoid

    Amador is hitting the nail on the head, but I feel like outright removal may be a bit more than is actually needed. Hear me out. What if the shotguns keep the test server's 100 damage maximum...

    ...but only when loaded with flechettes?

    They already impose a damage penalty by removing potential hits-per-shot. If flechettes get a damage-per-pellet penalty on top of that then I feel like they'd be in a better place. Players still have the option for trying to get slightly more consistent ranged damage out of a low skill ceiling weapon that pretty much depends on luck to chain headshots at that range. If it's consistent and consistently worse than other options sometimes, it would fall into a nice rock/paper/scissors of side-grades, which I believe was the original intent.

    I figure it's this, or give shotgun pellets and/or flechettes a special damage type that can be resisted with Nanoweave. Not slugs, though. Those are already a high enough risk vs. reward ammo type.




    And a mild non-sequitur while I'm here: I'd be okay with the Jackhammer nerf only if it gets the Bishop scout rifle's piercing mechanic in one or more of its fire modes. Yes, it'd piss off MAX pocket engineers. If I have to rush down an anti-infantry MAX to get in range for an engineer collateral, I'd say it's balanced.

    That or slugs with an absolutely stupid amount of CoF bloom per shot, since I have no idea why else the Jackhammer would have a 6x sight available.

    Edit:
    I have no idea which guns you're talking about. All the flat 334 damage scout rifles have a headshot multiplier that makes 1-shot headshots impossible and all but the TR one fire slower than any of the semi-auto shotguns.
  5. Amador

    I had rewritten this reply probably about 5 times over, due to reconsideration.

    Do understand that I grasp what you're saying and that your suggestion is reasonable. Instead I would say that if you're going to reduce the "per pellet damage" then the Dev's would no longer need the "pellet reduction" that Flechette Ammo has, as that would already be the tradeoff in comparison.

    ... Matter of fact, the proposal for a damage reduction would've been a better trade off than the Dev's choice to reduce the "pellet count" as it defeats the whole purpose of a SHOTgun to begin with. But I digress...

    However... I will instead further explain why keeping Flechette Ammo is a bad idea in principle. This largely has to do with deeply rooted player outlook and response...

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    Planetside 2 since it's launch has always had shotguns. Shotguns have always had absurdly poor pellet volume while paired with a horrific cone of fire. Not only did Shotguns suffer from the above, but they also had severe damage drop-off between 5-20+ meters.

    What does this mean?

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    It means that even though shotguns caused piss-poor damage beyond their intended range due to damage drop-off (which would have been enough as-is to keep them balanced) but their cone of fire was so terrible you couldn't even aim the gun at a further target and expect hits to land consistent enough to cause a kill.

    (NOTE: Thankfully the Smart Choke was the solution that resolved this dilemma and should remain untouched as this isn't the problem. Because even with a tighter pattern, shotguns still have short range damage drop-off and you don't need a double-negative here.)

    Why do I point this out? Its a simple but critical detail...

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    It's because the PS2 playerbase has gotten used to Shotguns being terrible performers for years and years beyond CQB ranges. Players are already acclimated to the presence of Shotguns, not only due to their limited player use, but because if a player were to fire at you with a Shotgun beyond 20 meters you'd laugh like it tickles.

    So why is Flechette Ammo bad? Simple.

    It's because Flechette Ammo takes a shotgun and TRIPLES THE RANGE so that it encroaches upon SMG and Carbine territory. The moment players get blasted and killed by a Shotgun over 20 meters away they're going to scream "foul".

    Shotguns should be exceptionally good at point-blank and CQB while maintaining their "overkill" damage. Because they must remain restricted to short range as not to deminish the role of SMG's and Carbines.

    PS2 Devs need to stop poking Shotguns with a stick and just remove Flechette Ammo from the game, or find an alternative purpose for it. I am not sure why Flechette Ammo was created when Slug Ammo already exists.

    If the Devs are desperate to redesign Flechette Ammo then maybe they should just make it reduce the cone of fire while hipfiring, or be a specialized ammo is a counter-play to Light Assault that hipfires while jetpacking. These are very simplified ideas for the sake of brainstorming.

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    (SPECIAL NOTE: For example, I had specifically encountered a player in /yell chat whom claimed they were getting hate tells. All because they were using an NS Baron with Flechette Ammo. Of course you know this is the apex combo, because the Baron is the best "ranged shotgun" there is and Flechette Ammo pushes it to the extreme.

    Said shotgun player argued in return, claiming that they had to land 3 consecutive shots to obtain the kill - same as what the heaviest hitting Scout Rifles do. Even though the player genuinely had to land those hits to get a kill... the "victim" was annoyed - all because they were killed by a shotgun which is able to reach out to SMG and Carbine ranges.)
    • Up x 1
  6. TR5L4Y3R

    ... it defeats the purpose of shooting people with a gun? ... how so? ... ... i know, bad joke ...



    i don´t think flechete as an idea is bad but not well included similar to slug ammo .. current liveserver shotguns to me feel like there is little purpose to change default buckshotammo ... and semiauto just doesn´t feel worth keeping at all so it´s either auto or pump ...

    could be simple ...
    buckshot - CQC high dmg - as is already
    flechete - close to midrange (bad upclose) reach slightly less spread than buckshot, with either one less projectile or less dmg per projectile
    slug - midrange präcision with a reticulechange, better headshotmultiplyer than flechette and buckshot
    explosive rounds - specificaly against maxes and maybe even heavy armor ...
  7. AchingScaphoid

    It could be a fun idea, but only if it has damage and ballistics worse than the QCX's explosive bolts, lest we have a repeat of the USAS-12 in Battlefield 3. And the whole kerfuffle right now seems to be "shotguns have too much range" so it'd have to be a very specialized ammo choice. I'd advocate for an AP dart slug instead to sidestep the whole splash damage issue, and a substantial damage nerf that puts it just below the level of the GODSAW's AP mode. Annoying to vehicles but not truly threatening, and a heavy penalty against infantry effectiveness.



    Anyway, to address the flechette issue: The reason I think it exists is to be an alternative to slugs with a low skill floor and a low skill ceiling compared to slugs... and that's the problem. People are upset by something they see as low-skill being effective. I slept on it some and thought up a couple more ideas for the range problem that involve raising the skill floor. If you want flechettes to stop stepping on the toes of carbines and SMGs, maybe make it so they just can't. Shorten the projectile lifespan to a fraction of a second, or give them some truly horrendous drag so that leading targets becomes mandatory at shorter ranges. I don't know if you've seen slow-motion footage of real flechette shot shells, but their projectiles are very unstable. It's like throwing a handful of nails.

    I also saw someone in the PTS update thread (the one that suggestions are supposed to be posted in) saying that giving flechettes a cone of fire buff instead of the range buff. I've got doubts about that one, especially in regards to the Baron. Flechettes in their current state make each pellet more consequential without making hits more likely. It would take a very high damage penalty to make a 1.5 spread smart choke and flechette Baron not have more potential than the same gun with slugs at practical ranges.