[Suggestion] time to increase max c4 resistance?

i'm not saying c4 shouldn't damage maxes, i'm not complaining that we have things that kill maxes.
i'm saying that since we've got a crap ton of "new" things that wipe the floor with maxes, there is utterly no reason for "super grenade" to still be one shotting FULL HEALTH maxes when hurled from across the room and not even needing to be too close to them.
before all of this new shiny stuff then people might have tried using "but c4 is the only thing that kills maxes!" as an excuse for why it is so hilariously OP against them, but that excuse won't fly now that we even have anti-max sniper rifles...

also again, i don't see my suggestion as "buffing their c4 resistance" since i consider Ordnance Armour to be utterly mandatory
(and that is entirely because of the ridiculously OP C4),
i see my suggestion as giving the max the opportunity to take another damn suit option,
because apparently we are supposed to have 3 suit slot options...

giving an ability wouldn't fix that, you can't keep your eye on 100 people at once,
there is always a c4 fairy coming to claim his easy xp,
so Ordnance Armour would still remain the only option if you want to avoid cheesy OP oneshots.

the ONLY fix if we want to actually give maxes suit slot options
is to make the c4 resistance of Ordnance Armour baseline.

I figure I should mention some useful info (math) to consider regarding C4 damage, MAX resistances, etc.

MAX suits currently have a -65% base resistance towards C4, which is the exact reason a 2k HP unit is one shotted by a 1250 damage explosive. The net total damage a C4 brick does to a MAX within the maximum damage radius is 2062.5, so we'll call it 2063. In short, dead.

With ordinance armour in place, a MAX has a resistance of -15% ( -65+50= -15) to C4. At that resistance value, the maximum a C4 brick does is 1437.5, rounding to 1438 damage. That leaves a MAX with 562 HP ( barely more then a quarter). Its worth noting that the vast majority of infantry weapons will kill a MAX in just one clip at this point, and that includes several pistols.

Meanwhile, the archer deals 500 damage up close ( 400 times 1.25 because negative resistance) with a direct hit, plus another 50 points of splash damage ( 100 times 0.5 because of resistance). So one close range archer shell will deal 550 to a MAX. At long range, this changes to be 300 damage. Now, these values are calculated without ordinance armour, but its impact is marginal at best. Ordinance armour only affect the archers splash, reducing it down to a max of 25 points. This changes the point blank on the archer to 525, and the long range to 275.

Two Archer shells from ranges of less then 190m ( technically one short ranged archer hit, and one near miss can also work if the MAX has been so much as spat on by someone else), plus a stick of C4 is guaranteed to kill a MAX. This goes down to only one archer hit, plus a stick of C4 if the archer scores a headshot at a range of less then 190 meters.

And remember, for VS and TR, this gets even worse because of their faction abilities. TR can't move while locked down, so this will guarantee they take the full force of this damage. VS take an extra 20% damage with ZOE active, which means they die even faster to all of this.

This is a huge part of the reason why NC are the only faction that uses MAX suits with any sort of consistency these days, and its because their shield is of basically of no consequence to use, and significantly reduces the threat posed by rockets, small arms, and archers.

TLDR: Given the current use rate of C4, ordinance armour is basically mandatory right now simply because of C4 resistance, and the VS and TR MAX suits are hit even harder by these issues, and may in turn need some additional tuning.

No, they're not pump-actions. They are distinctly semi-automatic shotguns and cannot OHK a healthy target by themsevles.

And no, firing two at the same time does not make them pump-actions.

Which... buffs MAX c4 resistance.

So why do you focus on giving the MAX inherent resistances, if you could actually change the actual problem? C4 is ridiculously OP because it's omniversal, it's power is actually pretty OK considering the range and costs that come with it and even more when you consider the alternatives. So you have to change C4 and create alternatives. Split C4 so you have several C4 types for different tasks and that lack when used in a task they weren't designed for. Create new resource-costing utility weapons that can fulfill a variety of functions, from deployable shields to high-strength grenade launchers with different types of ammunition that cost per shot to buying weapons that you lose after you respawn but cost no more resources as long as you use them. If only 5% of the playerbase uses a C4 that can OHK a MAX reliably, most of the problems are gone.
But it gets better. You could design the C4 AI version to require 2 or 3 hits on a vanilla MAX to kill it, but you can throw them much faster after each other and farther than current C4 and at lower cost per unit. That fits everything you want to change, but doesn't require the MAX to get some protection that allows them to pay little to no attention to their surroundings.

But why is buffing it's C4 resistance the only way to do that?

No one can, that's why PS2 is set out to be a teamgame where you rely on allies to support you, or in case of the attacker to create an opening allowing you to C4 a high-value target. Nothing wrong with that! There is something wrong however with simply automating a protection. Imagine if HA shields automatically activated upon damage "because you can't keep your eye on 100 people at once". It would make HA's require far less skill to operate to get by while suddenly opponents require more skill as a flank won't give you that opportunity to take them out before they activate.

And there should always be a C4 fairy coming to claim his XP. Having a skillsuit should not grant immunity or easymode, it should change the way you, your allies and your enemies play the game around you. A high-value target that can help their allies and requires some more special tactics or weaponry to be taken out by the enemy.

No it wouldn't.

Or by changing the contents of the utilityslot and what those things do, which would give the opportunity for far more varied gameplay and a better infantry vs tank/MAX/air relationship.

yes we know that you have no idea how the game works. no need to repeat to say it.

They're not pump action indeed, but we talk about weapons that can deal 2x750 at 180 rpm. It's even worst.

Your maths are incorrect : ordnance armor reduce damage to 1031 (it halve the incoming damage, your math show +50% additionnal c4 resistance).
But I agree with your conclusion : c4 make ordnance armor mandatory.

The idea is to allow stock max to survive to 1 c4 without increasing ordnance MAX resistance to c4. Yes it improve stock MAX resistance to c4, but it won't make ordnance max outrageously resistant to c4.

I doubt your idea about more stuff inside item slot will be as effective as you claim.
1 the only reason people are willing to give up c4 is to equip an even more OP item.
2 it will take time and a lot of effort from the devs to implement all of these. Meanwhile change MAX baseline resistance will be a lot more easier.
3 more item with comparable power as c4 mean more problems for the MAX.

That's why it's better to fix problems with raw resistance that by developping complex and numerous items. And even with your idea, ordnance will still be mandatory because c4 still exist.
The other solution to make ordnance armor no longer mandatory is to remove the c4 resistance from it, making both stock and ordnance MAX OHKed by c4. Needless to say that unless it's compensated by something, it will kill the class.

i find c4 versus vehicles to be in a good spot and if you change c4 purely because it is too good against maxes then you're nerfing it in areas where it doesn't need nerfing.

which sounds like a whole load of work, i'm just asking for 2 number tweaks which would solve the problem,
and without potentially making new problems, with new grenades and c4 varients that then need balancing
(and would probably be bugged on inception, like everything in PS2 )
also if even 5% of the playerbase can still oneshot you from out of nowhere, the problem is not gone,
i'd still run ordnance armour.

because currently Ordnance armour is mandatory,
every max with a brain already has the 50% reduced c4 damage
because they are locked in to using ordnance armour purely because of the c4 resistance.
until that c4 resistance is baseline it will always be mandatory to run Ordnance,
even if KA and NAR were made really really good, Ordnance would remain mandatory.

as i said a few posts ago, noone is asking for immunity or easymode...
a decimator and AV grenade combo wrecks maxes, and thats fine,
what is not fine is going from FULL HEALTH to DEAD in a single attack,
a single attack that can be used by 4/5 classes and hurled across the room, not even needing to land immediately by the max.

you keep mentioning an active ability solution, but that simply won't do.
ordnance armour allows you to survive a single brick of c4 from the cheesefairy,
you'll have c4 coming out of nowhere every 30 seconds.
would YOU decide not to use Ordnance Armour if you were given an activateable ability that allows you to only avoid c4 that you spot and then only if you correctly react within 0.1 second?

i play NC so i do indeed have times when i think "i CBA waiting for idiot engies to heal between fights,
i'll use NAR and i can use shield to stop c4!"
you know how that inevitably ends?


spotting a C4fairy, hitting the shield 0.1 second to late and getting oneshot...
dying much sooner than just running the damn Ordnance Armour like we're required to do.
an activateable ability will never be a viable replacement for Ordnance Armour.
infact i wish i didn't have the shield to keep tempting me to be the idiot who plays without Ordnance...

ergo the c4 resistance needs to be made baseline if we're ever going to have options for the suit slot.
a c4 nerf would effect vehicles, an activateable ability won't cut it, new items is way too much work.

Only "OHK" kill if both are equipped and fire at the same time and land a total of at least 8/12 pellets (assuming dual Scattercannons within max damage range against a standard theoretical target).

Actual pump-actions would probably be better. Halve the RoF and double the pellets. Hell, throw in a refire time too, they'd still be better.

Coming from the guy who cannot differentiate between a pump-action and a semi-automatic receiver and the practical implications either would have in a videogame bound by external logic and balance.

12 pellet 112 damage is the exact damage of a pump action. except at 200rpm instead of 100.
so how is that not a semi automatic pump action?
real life logic is irrelevant. a mouseclick is a mouseclick.

Well, it's because you are firing two guns with semi-automatic triggers and not a single shotgun which cannot fire more than once without being pumped.

Real life logic is important because it is literally what shapes the logic within the game world.

Please don't taunt prudentia, I don't want to get PTSD from you two and your POV confrontation about doku lmg.
Edit : >_< too late. Can you both agree to disagree and stop thoses meaningless fights ?

If I'm not wrong, NC MAX had ohk shotgun in the beta. The current nerfed version show you it's a bad idea to have this kind of stuff on MAX. For my part, i'm for replacing NC MAX shotgun by macheguns. But we should stay on the thread and speak about c4 against MAX.

You said you were okay with stock MAX not being OHK by c4 but that it should come with a trade of. Can you develop your idea ?

Heh, just wait 'till the next set comes out.

Yeah, let's try to keep this one on-track. I'd say the best solution would be to cut some of the innate small arms resistance off the MAX in exchange for the C4 resistance.

Ideally, MAXes would be easier to kill just by shooting them normally but wouldn't fall to C4 so easily like they do now. Hopefully might also solve the issue of Ordinance Armour being the best by creating a need for Kinetic Armour while dropping the demand for C4 protection.

If nothing else, it's more fun to die to bullets over time than it is to be C4'd and die instantly.

Lowering small weapon resistance to 75% (8000 effective HP) could do the trick. I just hope we don't go from ordnance mandatory to kinetic mandatory.

everything i said about those was and is correct. Champagnes victim complex doesn't change that.
and the NC MAX currently simply IS the best Anti infantry max. period. It's ability is the only one that can actually do something against C4, even if it is somewhat inconsistent and it's the only MAX that can actually kill someone who tries to C4 it in time.
So yes,MAXes shouldn't die to a single brick of C4 if everyone can carry 2, it just means that all MAXes take 2 bricks because ordinance is mandatory which means buffing base resist is actually a nerf in direct combat because it means you'll now always take 2 bricks just like before, but a single brick will sometimes leave a MAX with a lot less HP than currently.

As has been mentioned before, the big reason to give C4 resist to a MAX suit is because its a fix that doesn't require weeks or even months to wait for. It fixes a clear cut problem quickly, and even if its only meant as a temporary fix, still solves the issue. Not to mention that C4 is performing as it should in a number of other areas ( particularly anti armour).

As for splitting up C4 ( based on stuff I have previously seen on this topic), I do see an immediate flaw in that plan, since no one other then light assaults would ever bother running anything other than anti infantry C4. And here's the thing. If I am in a tank, and a medic, or an engineer manages to sneak around me and plant C4, I feel they have completely earned that kill. Except now that the only logical choice for them is anti infantry C4, they can't do that, which is kinda a shame. Even with light assaults, there is no seriously compelling reason to use anti infantry C4 over other types if your attacking a facility, unless there exists a stronger or equally useful alternative option.

Would other alternatives be a great thing? Absolutely. Unfortunately, each one must be balanced, and each one still needs to be created, which once again, can take months to achieve. Plus, and I hate to be the bringer of bad news here, a couple of the things I see as being suggested could present serious balance issues, particularly resource ammo and resource costing guns. Both present the obvious issue of " Why the hell would anyone ever bother to use anything else, if this is better then any other gun" issue for general infantry. In fact, why even run a MAX at that point, if two or three heavies with lower resource costing super guns can beat your MAX suit in a gun fight. The heavies can still cap points, and best of all, would not have any need for an engie to piggy back them, since they only need the one common front line support class to keep them going ( medics).

The end fact remains simple. Alternatives would be a great thing, and if they manage to alleviate the problem, that's great. Unfortunately, they will take time, and they each will have the potential to create problems of their own. If things change later on, that's great, but its a dumb idea to balance around what has yet to be added, instead of what is already present.

Max is strong enought like that! Give us a chance!

If i play in a MAX, i do usually in a squad. I only ever take flak armor if i am dedicated AA/AV. The to-go-armor is kinetic, as it is roughly a 50% HP increase versus small arms! Situational awareness, knowing the enviroment, teammates covering you, sweeper implant, a pocket engee and the squads medic are much better.
Oh, and TR and VS dont even have the "cheat shield" to protect from blasts. Dieing, also in a MAX, is part of the gameplay...

36% increase, not 50%. which results in 14418 effective HP against Small arms and 1 HP against C4 that the guy in the room you are pushing threw trough the door when he heard you coming.

That's why you could split C4. For example you have an AV version and an AI version. The AV version could have different properties like smaller AOE and faster degradation making it harder for MAX's to be killed, and MAX's could get a resistance bonus vs the AI version. This does not make it impossible for a MAX to get OHK'd, but it does mean there's a higher skill ceiling required to properly get the C4 on top of the MAX or he might survive.

It is more work, but it's necessary work. C4's biggest problem isn't it's firepower, but omniversal capabilities (kind of like the HA) and lack of good alternatives. Or considering the alternatives are a variation of healing equipment, no AV alternatives whatsoever.

It's like asking for a Co-ax gun for tanks. It's work, but it's a better option than tweaking the current weapons. Currently the biggest difference between HESH, HEAT and AP is their AOE, and the bigger the AOE the less skill they require. So adding Co-ax guns to change the power is a far smarter move as you get a lot more control over the damage and abilities without immediately affecting the AV capabilities. You could even create a Co-ax gun that shoots explosive rounds if necessary, or change it's ROF or it's magazine size... Far better balancing options in the long run.

Everything you add has a potential for balancing problems, that's no reason not to add it.

Not really the point I was making, changing C4 resistance is one option, but there's other options that can be done as well. Options that have far better consequences for the game.

Hurled across the room... Still have to see that.

But it would be easymode, because you suddenly have to worry a lot less about an extreme CQC weapon with a cost. Just yesterday I used Ordnance armor MAX and was able to withstand more than 7 C4 over time simply because it's a CQC weapon and all MAX's don't give you much time in CQC. That's already more than my MAX cost, not counting the time spend for the enemies to respawn and return and the massive amounts of XP I was raking in. (killboards don't seem to work currently?)

C4 out of nowhere every 30 seconds? Do they teleport towards you after spawning or something?

And if that shield actually worked instantly rather than after the animation was completed? You would have survived that one, and many many more. For all I care, give the Emergency Repair a temporary resistance bonus vs C4. Suddenly the fact that it takes a while before that ability is done is a good thing and the fact that it works instantly helps you, not to mention that you will be regenerating immediately after the hit.

Ergo, you could actually change how C4 worked rather than give a class sudden resistances.

This guy is standing there with the trigger in the hand, pants down for any flak infantry.
You see (with implant) if he trapped. One can still survive a not perfect placed C4 with some health and outgun him...