[Suggestion] infiltrators dmg mbt

Infiltrator have AV already

And no its not wraith flash

There is much more to this. A wraith flash can't kill a tank on it's own without serious risks and a lot of time. They are more opportunist, like the infiltrator itself. You prey on the weak. Infiltrators are very adept at creating those opportunities without 'help' of the enemy (them making mistakes or mayor risks).
going to and staying at a place where damaged tanks go is very easy compared to all other classes. Especially with the stalker cloak. Together with the fact that you won't be shown on the radar when you throw a grenade and you will have a powerhouse combination for a guy who isn't designed for any tank engagements.

Besides, no infantry likes to encounter tanks. None is particularly powerful against tanks. AV is very limited in both range, ammo and damage for infantry. Only if the enemy makes big mistakes you can drop a c4 or two.

Infiltrators isen't meant for AV purpose. It's prime goal in the gameplay is to pick of valuable targets of infantry or harrass the enemy by hacking terminal and equipment. If you want to be able to damage armor, go heavy assault/engineer/max/light assault, if you want to stay as a class with high damage against infantry then stay infiltrator.

Grab crossbow and explosive bolts end of story

Every class in the game doesn't deserve to be able to counter everything in the game. Sometimes, you just have to avoid things you can't directly counter, it's what teammates are for.

funny how that combined arms logic applies only where the error margins are the thinnest and doesn't really affect the much more powerful vehicles and air.

Specialization. If every class is to have AV why not give all of them repair tools, med guns and a over shield...

It's completely logical. I mean one rifleman versus an F-35... I dunno who you'd bet on but my money is on the pilot.

In modern warfare infantry do have a relatively lesser role than vehicles. That's just the nature of "how much stuff can I make one man carry" versus "how much stuff can I fit on a motorized vehicle". To balance it out, infantry are relatively cheap, plentiful, and expendable.

Today's military tactics often employ infantry as the eyes to locate the enemy, a screening element to protect much more valuable vehicles, or just someone to sit in one spot to deny the enemy the ability to waltz in. But infantry are usually not your primary striking element, and they do not cause the most enemy casualties (that role would be artillery or airstrikes).

Mechanized or motorized infantry is more effective than foot infantry, but the weaknesses of infantry are still there. Just that they move a little faster and (thanks to their vehicles) have a bit more firepower.

The proper way to think about combined arms is more of a armor-air-AA triangle. These are usually the things that counter other things. Infantry are a generalist position that augments the power of each of those three main elements. Armor plus infantry means that the infantry can screen the armor from other threats. Air plus infantry means that the infantry can identify targets for air units or neutralize AA positions. AA plus infantry means that the AA is lightly protected from other infantry.

This is what we mean by "combined arms". It's a mistake to think that infantry are the center of it, and that other vehicles exist to support the infantry. In fact it is the other way around.

How a proper base battle ought to unfold:



Infantry scouts move in around a base to designate targets for air and artillery. Strikes begin, reducing the effectiveness of entrenched enemy infantry and taking out hard points. After no more targets are available, these elements either switch to precision fire support or prevent enemy reinforcements from arriving in the base.



Tanks and other vehicles move in to control the outside of the base, to provide both fire support as well as to engage reinforcements or fleeing enemies. They also provide local security, allowing friendly supplies and reinforcements to sustain the assault.



With the outside secured and the enemy unable to project fire out of the base, tanks and infantry transports begin to move into the base.



Once inside the base, infantry dismount. Tanks move to firing positions with long, clear firing lanes. Some infantry stay to support the tanks, while other infantry move to dig out the remaining enemy. Should infantry encounter significant enemy resistance, the infantry will call in their transport units or tanks to deal with the enemy infantry or vehicles.



With the enemy rooted out, all units switch to a defensive role to anticipate an enemy counter attack. If none comes, then some infantry and light forces are left behind in case the enemy decides to come back, but the majority of forces move on to the next position.

There probably should have been a section in there too about air superiority and air defense, but that generally isn't an issue in our latest battles (though of course the military has plans for that). Local air control would probably happen near the beginning of the operation, and air defenses would form a perimeter around the base along with tanks.

Anyhow, the point is that infantry are excellent support units... but they're just that. Support. They fill in holes and gaps and do play an important role, but I don't think it can be called a central role. Vehicles (especially air and artillery) do the heavy lifting in any war.

In modern warfare it would be wrong to equate one infantry to one tank to one aircraft. That's simply not how they're balanced. Vehicles will always be superior to infantry in every way except cost and numbers, yet will still need to rely on infantry to do basic tasks like going into a house to figure out if the enemy is home or not.

The solution to infiltrators not having any effect tools against vehicles?

Bring back vehicle hacking.

I'm not even a vehicle guy, but no. A class that can go into an almost invisible state should not have inherent access to AV weapons. It's one thing to be a C4 Fairy; Yes you can destroy vehicles very well, but there are significant risks to it, because everyone and their mom can see you on your approach. Being able to stealth your way to a vehicle, then apply AV damage, seems like a childish request to make an already elusive and deadly class (if played right, which most aren't) even more effective. I remember when you could stick C4 to a friendly Infiltrator, then have them go stealth (the C4 was still visible though) , run up to a vehicle, and the trigger man detonates the C4, killing or highly damaging the vehicle.

Just my opinion though, I don't really mess with vehicles. It would give infiltrators one more reason to not conduct their reconnaissance sub-role, and just run around "trying" to kill vehicles. Hell, they might even make it a directive mission. It would make crappy Infiltrators even worse.

You are an Infiltrator, you are supposed to be all about Infiltrating and taking out the enemy from behind; running and hiding and killing form the shadows is what you're supposed to do.

first we need to decide if it's a game for funzies or a simulator. If we go with realism then NOTHING in PS2 makes a tiniest shred of sense.
Early 21st century infantry is on its way out, manned vehicles are on their way out replaced by dirt cheap drones, not to mention the fact that machines have orders of magnitude better reflexes accuracy and what not. Somehow in this pseudoscifi universe war looks like the early 20th century, meatbags are all over the place, not to mention trying to get into the melee range with tanks to plant explosives Soviet style like the eastern front of WW2. Also tanks irl tend to require infantry screen in urban environ so they don't get reamed from behind with a rocket but somehow this aspect of combined arms never enters the mind of your average tanker who feels entitled to surviving multiple ones and whines when he gets blown up by melee range explosives taking over 5 seconds to deploy and detonate.

If we go with funzies, please explain why only 1 out of 6 classes is SOL which makes it a 2nd class citizen right off the bat in a mech infested game.

I realize i am theorycrafting here but why is it impossible to have a defensive infiltrator guarding the parking lots for the skillcharriots? Either they are disposable and nobody cares or they are valuable so maybe it's worth it to put some effort into prevention?

infiltration goes hand in hand with sabotage. Why have hi-tech suits and then waste the potential on peasants that will be back in 10 seconds as if nothing happened when there are much more valuable, harder to replenish targets around?

In PS1 infiltrators were very very squishy yet had a full trunk of explosives and could do really nasty hacking.
In PS2 running buttnaked with a brick in hand and hoping for the best, like a headless guy from Serious Sam is one of the staple AV tricks and the infiltration/sabotage class can't sabotage for ****. I know which one seems right in the context of the universe and common sense.

Have you never taken over a AV turret from behind enemy lines and blown the crap out of several tanks? Or air?

It's remarkable what a single infiltrator can do at an amp station or tech plant.

Yes, i have and it's not something i'd call dependable and worth the effort. Turrets are rare, majority of them faces completely ridiculous directions, it's almost as if they were intentionally made meh in order not to make vehicle drivers sad. They require 4 shots in the mbt *** and like 7 in the front which means only the worst of mouthbreathers are going to wait for death. Backstabbing a magrider clump ends in every single one of them magburning away and then returning to gib your turret while strafing like a mofo. Whenever i do hack turrets i expect 10 seconds of action tops and instead of a very improbable vehicle kill i go for infantry because at least i get some predictable returns on it.
Also tanks are rumored to get a hp buff which means an even worse ttk. And if the turret is occupied you are most likely going to die to an invisible dude because that's PS2 for you.

My opinion on this is that different infantry classes have their ability for a reason. Giving one class too many will make the other less important and undermine teamplay.

Infiltrators can't really do too much about enemy armor directly, but indirectly they can be a great asset to their faction by:

• taking out tank crews behind enemy lines that exit their vehicle to repair, thinking they were in safety (it a quite satisfactory feeling )
• vulturing on enemy tanks with explosive darts (situational)
• hacking vehicle spawns, camping vehicle spawns, mining vehicle spawns (in towers, hack the infantry terminal, switch to engineer, put down AT mines, switch back to infil.)
• hacking turrets

are you sure you are not talking about engineers and heavy assaults here? Because last time i checked their rule over the game is uncontested.

dropping maphacks and that would be it. Everything else is a fluff nobody would sacrifice a squad slot, sustainability and firepower for.

superseded in 5 seconds by the sad feeling that there is nobody to finish the job and the crew returns from a nearby sunderer, this time knowing what to expect so you just wasted a significant amount of time to get 1-2 kills and deny 20 seconds of tank action. And if you fail they are one keypress E from safety and have a big gun that can be used against you.

it's so gimmicky it's not even worth mentioning

the fact that the engineer undoes it faster than what your expedition to hack it took is very sad

somewhat viable, especially if the kill hits the narrow window when resources are already spent

so an engineer then plus it requires blindness on the enemy's part

Infiltrator AV:

Direct

Wraith flash with nade launcher.

Hunter CQC X-Bow with HE bolts.

Indirect

Terminal hack, swap to AV class (Engi/HA/LA)

Tell your friend to stick 2xC4 to your weapon, go invisible and let him detonate.

Painting targets for indirect targeting for strikes would be pretty cool. The people in vehicles or buildings getting hit with things they can't see wouldn't appreciate it though.

Obviously, you can do all of those things.
Again that is not the same thing. Requires a terminal, switching classes, a teammate. Crossbow with explosive bolts is not effective. It is a niche weapon with a useless ammo type. People need to stop suggesting that as a viable option against armor because it isn't.

The decoy grenade is also useless and it needs to be replaced with a grenade that can do significant damage to armor.