Vanguard Versus Prowler TTK

Mobility is a great attribute when fighting against infantry.
Vanguards are slower so that enemy infantry has more time to run away or hide behind cover.
Other tanks are faster, and easier to chase down infantry without risking long exposure to infantry fire.
Also add the obvious fact that ramming infantry is much harder for Vanguards.

To be fair, then you have to give the AP shells their 1,13x multiplier against MBT's.
I would actually prefer the DPS after everything is calculated. That means weapon damage modifiers as well as front/side armor. This gives the fairest indication as every tank has different armor value's.
You can use raw DPS for a more general idea against other vehicles as well ofcourse.

It does, but the Saron is only good at closer ranges. At longer ranges you severely hamper your DPS by either spamming and missing most shots or you need to perform time-consuming trigger discipline, reducing your DPS even more. So your next comment about the Saron outclassing the Halbert... it only counts at close ranges, even at medium ranges you are likely to miss a shot or two.

I do think you hit a Prowler "problem" here. Someone gunning for a Prowler is very unlikely to get the killshot on anything. This means that people don't like gunning for one, causing many Prowlers to drive around without any gunner.



One of the reasons that the Vanguard has less infantry kills, is the fact that when a Vanguard shows up, infantry is less likely to try to shoot at it with rockets and what not, because the Vanguards is a shielded beast that can take it..
When I show up in my Prowler, every foot soldier with a sling shot and a bad apple will throw stuff at me, because they know there is a good chance that they can get me.[/quote]

The Vanguard has less infantry kills because it takes a whopping 4 seconds, 3,5 with max reload, to fire one shot. So when two HA's show up you need perfect aim, otherwise you already cash in 3 rockets assuming you miss one shot and perform OHK's on the other two.
That Vanguard shield? Infantry laugh at it. They fire a rocket, your shield comes on. By the time my Vanguard has reloaded my shield has 2 seconds left before it dissipates and I barely have time to shoot them. Most RocketLauncher reload times is 5,2. Infantry doesn't give anything about a Vanguard shield because by the time they reloaded and pop around their cover my shield just disappears!
The Prowler has two shots and a short reload. He can easily suppress and kill infantry. A miss is much less of a problem for a Prowler. Also the total AOE damage those two shots deal against infantry is 900 damage. A Vanguard with his one shot (and slower reload) deals 750 AOE damage with slightly less damage falloff.

The Vanguard has less kills total as well as less vehicle kills. These stats are taken from hundreds of vehicles and thousands of kills. You can see that the Vanguard structurally has less overall kills as well as vehicle kills. In the case of Infantry kills the Prowler even has two weapons that outclass the Vanguards best weapon while the Magrider outclasses it with one weapon and it's second best weapon is nearly as good as the Vanguards best. This isn't a case of "maybe they meet less infantry". It can't possibly be that simple.
Statistics do show a lot. If you have the right correlation you can accurately tell something about how the weapons are used. In a combined arms setting with infantry, aircraft and various tanks the Vanguard simply cannot compete compared to the other two MBT's.

Funny that you should say that. Look at the link of the monthly stats, what do you see?
If you look close enough you'll see that the titan HEAT has similar kills to the Supernova PC. The fact that the "average kills" of the Supernova PC is higher is because Magriders with Supernova PC manage to kill more people before they die. This shows that the Magrider with Supernova PC has been equipped less than the Vanguard with HEAT. The Prowler HEAT next to it has a slightly higher KD, but also a much higher killcount. This means the Prowler HEAT was pulled much more than the Magrider PC, but that they performed about as good.

Titan AP has similar kills but lower KD than the Magrider's Supernova FPC. This shows again that the Magrider FPC was pulled less than the Vanguard AP but did get a better KD. The Prowler AP has 4000 kills more as well as a higher KD, so it was pulled more as well as it outperformed the other two (an increase of the KD of 0,5 compared to the Magrider FPC does not account for all of the 4000 kills, which means the Prowler was taken more often than the Magrider FPC).

Titan HE is the runt of the family, despite outperforming all other Vanguard weapons in infantry kills. The Vanguard HE was pulled only a few times to get the 2222 kills, but still performed rather well with a KD of 9,74. Despite this the Magrider VPC outperforms it with 3 KD higher, and it was pulled a little bit less than twice as much than the Vanguard HE. The same counts for the Prowler HE which was pulled a little bit less than the Magrider VPC but had more kills in that time.

So this logical extrapolation of the data shows that the Vanguard was pulled about as much and sometimes even more than the magrider, it just died before it could do as much damage. It could have less engagements, but it would survive those engagements less than the Magrider.
Let's take into account that reportedly the Vanguard survives the longest in the field. This shows that the Vanguard has similar or more engagements, survives the engagements longer but deals less damage in all accounts.

Ever tried to roadkill enemies with a Magrider?

No, it's not that simple. Otherwise the Magrider would be 10X better than other MBTs, because the Magrider can truly go where no other MBT can ..

I think you accidentally copied the quote tags from my post over some other people's posts there. Namely those silly ones that are still trying to claim the Prowler is UP, which I can only assume came from a TR player.

Sure! Tthe easiest tank, of the three, to roadkill with. Yeah man! It's a great time.

(Sure, people can crouch, but lets be honest here.)

Easiest to roadkill friendlies. Enemies it seems to like pushing aside safely.

Yeah but still far easier than a prowler, and lets not even mention vanguard.

Obviously the best solution is to buff the Magrider.

its almost assured already been called, but ********

there is no way that the prowlers ttk on a unsheilded vanguard is the same as the vanguards ttk agaisnt a prowler. The vanguard only has a small effective health advantage over the prowler (~12%) without using sheild, the prowler has a LARGE damage advantage over the vanguard (~47%)

whoeps, sorry. It was supposed to be a quote of FBVanu.

As Froty The Pyro said. ********.

We can prove it with this one strange old thing:
3 shots in the back=kill with vanguard. reload time is 4 seconds, so a vanguard can kill a Prowler/Magrider from the back in 3*4=12 seconds. This is from the back.

I already calculated the TTK's twice in this thread. I included everything, refire time, weapon specific damage modification, armor... I don't have time to look it up so you will have to do it yourself, but a TTK of 12 is a dream for any Vanguard or Magrider unless you shoot from the back.
The Prowler in Anchor mode on the other hand...

The Prowler has a DPS advantage of 21% to the front and 17% to the side after all factors have been calculated, if I remember correctly.

Your logic is off; it's 8s (you don't care about the reload on the last shell as the tank has died so shot, 4s reload, shot, 4s reload, shot).

I disagree. I would actually say it is the opposite.

When people see my Vanguard they see an easy target to harass and zealously try to kill me.

The Prowler's cannon is significantly better at anti-infantry work making it more dangerous to attack. The Magrider is extremely hard to hit with rockets/C4 because of how mobile it is. When infantry attack a Vanguard they see an easy target to hit that will struggle to retaliate. The Shield is used to compensate, but not to gain a substantial advantage compared to the Magrider/Prowler in this kind of situation.

Case in point: http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/

Vanguard dies the most from C4.
Prowler and Vanguard die similar amounts from dumbfires.
Magrider dies substantially less from either.

You guys really should include Enforcer/Halberd into that TTK. Driving 1/2 tank for hunting vanguards is basically suicide. Driving 2/2, still a suicide but at least you can get lucky.

1.) The first shot is free in TTK calculations as you're not reloading for the first shot. It takes 7s to kill a Prowler from behind with AP.

2.) If you have a gunner or if he's damaged it takes 3.5s (one reload) to kill a Prowler from behind since two shots puts him into burning.

3.) TTK of 12s isn't far off for a Vanguard or Magrider. My AP cannon kills a Prowler/Magrider in 14s (5 shots) to the front.

4.) The TTK for a 2/2 AP Vanguard or Magrider against a Prowler is around 7-8s.

Note: I assume certed reload speeds.

The Magrider has similar HE/HEAT cannons to the Vanguard except with less velocity but a slightly faster reload.

However, the Magrider's AI guns get more kills/hour than a Vanguard's. This is because they can position themselves so well.

The Magrider's anti-infantry guns don't have higher kills/hour than a Prowler's because the Prowler's guns are so effective by default.

you are wrong, a lot of infantry still remember, how Prowlers farmed through spawn shield, infantry hates Prowlers because of farming too much infantry. That's why they will shoot you with rockets. And Vanguards will be c4'ed.

From what I understand, there are two reasons solo Prowlers are more common:

1.) Lack of viable ES secondaries.

Marauder and Vulcan aren't very good on the Prowler so there's less incentive.

2.) A secondary gunner isn't necessary for the Prowler.

The Prowler's gun has innate anti-infantry power so an AI gunner isn't necessary, and the Prowlers effective anti-vehicle range is well beyond the Halberd. The anchored AP Prowler's TTK against most vehicles is so fast that the extra damage output of the Halberd isn't necessary either. The only remaining thing is AA, but Prowlers can just put on a Walker and be fine without a dedicated gunner.