When Libs are no more, tanks will be abundant...

Did I call it easy? No, I called it simple and 1-dimensional if anything.

Single AA doesn't do plenty if you're actually meeting resistance from your targets.
Groups of AA will, and if you're lacking in resistance from your targets then sure, you can eventually do something on your own.

And how is that even a comparison?
AA is something you do, getting shelled by a lib is not on you doing something. If you've got to compare, do so with being the target of AA to being the target from lib fire.

As for why I prefer the AV-AV vehicle hunting, it's simple: The biggest difference between me and <insert random player in a tank here> is that me and my gunner are flat out better players.

Besides, are you using AA for the challenge?
I'm using the Magrider for the interesting gameplay, with the challenge being a bonus.

I don't expect you to agree. I've tried just about everything in the game, and so far nothing was more dull to me than AA duty.
I know that people in my outfit don't agree with me, some even enjoy taking their AA out for a spin.

I don't. And that's all there -really- is to it.

What in my previous post is emotional? Is any of what I said wrong?

Alright, let me dial it back a bit and try to explain. I'll keep it brief.

What I meant was, my enjoyment with AA comes from keeping the game interesting for other people, by keeping air off of them, so they can play as they see fit. I'm not trying to be elitist, or say I'm better than anyone, I'm trying to say that I enjoy the game from a teamplay perspective, it's not about score/kills/etc.

Where is the challenge if you're flat out better than other players?

I'm not trying to be snide, but the truth is, I do play AA for the challenge. People still hate Harassers, and an AA buggy is vulnerable to every AV threat, and a primary target for every air threat. I have more fun driving other people doing AA, baiting and reversing on planes, hitting jumps and executing drift turns, then gunning it myself (usually).

We do what we do because we enjoy it, I think you and I are the same, in that regard. What I was really trying to say at the end is that there's alot more depth to every facet of this game than we typically acknowledge, and when we choose to focus our efforts on a specific role, we can lose focus on the challenges faced by other players who have different preferences. That's not just games, that's life.

In the end, we're here arguing because we're both passionate about what we do. I think that is a good thing.

Not everyone knows how to go outside the zerg and get things done (and staying alive). You can say I've taken that to the extreme as far as tanking is concerned.

I don't do magriding for the challenge (like I said, it's an added benefit), but for the excitement that way of playing brings.

You also don't have to mask it in the wrapping of a life lesson.
At the end of the day you asked me why I don't like using AA. I told you some hastily assembled ones from the top of my head, that's what you got. But no matter what, it's a part of the game I've used a fair few times but never enjoyed.
All the while you may not have tried to be snide, but you did come across as such here and there.

How slow would a dalton round need to be in order for an ESF to dodge it at medium range?

Cause thats how slow the dalton needs to be. Like not really a cannon.

... that's what it is at the moment if I'm honest.

in psychology that is what is known as projecting i believe.

i just wanted to lower the rate of fire on the tank buster while raising the damage per shot so that it was not as useful against ESF (and a slight damage nerf so they at least need to reload once while murdering MBTs). as a dedicated grounder i was mostly ok with the belly guns. as a general rule i thought the tail guns needed some buffs and the other non TB nose guns as well so that there was reason to take them and so the absurd flip over and dalton ESFs tactic wouldn't be so necessary. we will have to see just how much they lower shot velocity, but i doubt it will impact the A2G combat much since most vehicles not only don't look up but simply, can't, so they can never see the shots incoming, and infantry render range is so close that only people staring straight up at the aircraft will have a realistic chance of dodging shots. fast moving ground vehicles might stand a chance, but that can be negated by the ability to lead shots properly.

i warned the liberator pilots (Dreadnaut included) about a month ago that this would happen if they didn't work with the ground forces a little and make some concessions. this is the most epic "i told you so" i have ever gotten out of an online forum.

what do you define as medium range? i think this is something that should be made clear since it really does effect the dynamic of the argument and if people have different definitions then you are simply arguing past each other.

You're not the only one there.
What amuses me personally is how some of these proposed nerfs are surprisingly close to some of the things I'd suggest over the last 2 months. And for some things, like the change coming for the lolpods is something I've been talking about since the Mass Drivers hit PTS the first time.

Are this data dated? Lots and lots of hours here in the denominator. Might it be more appropriate to only look at the last 30 days or since the last significant patch?

I agree AA is completely boring. I think that is ultimately the problem, since it does counter libs very well when used. It's just no one wants to sit in a skyguard to see a plane once every 10 minutes. They work so well when there is more than one, no planes come around. Maybe we should just buff the xp gain from AA kills to make it seem like you're doing more. Or slap a kobalt onto the hood of the lightning as a secondary so you're not completely locked into air patrol.

Is there an established reason for using the average of the top 100 players? In quantitative analyses with large sample sizes, it's quite common to ditch the top 10%, bottom 10% and take the average of the remainder to see what a population is doing. 100 of the highest killing folks seems a little small and prone to spoilage from aim botters/stat junkies when we have 10's of thousands of players.

the rocket pods did need to be effective AV weapons back when the only choices were those or the A2A missiles, but now there are more options and room for specialization. surprisingly i don't see many complaints about that change, it is just the lib pilots whining because their cheese is getting nerfed and the (mostly) general consensus that magriders are getting shafted.

maybe connery has just spoiled me, but my skyguard almost always has aircraft to chew on. i rarely go more than a couple minutes without some pilot sacrificing himself to my glory. then there are the times when i piss them off and they actively send swarms out to kill me, those are incredibly fun. ever kill 3 rocket pod mosquitoes at the same time? it will give you this unbeatable warm fuzzy feeling.

besides the AA cannon has such a high rate of fire that it is an effective suppression tool within around 100 meters and easily kills infantry within 50 meters (i do it all the time). slap some proximity radar on and it becomes the stuff nightmares are made of for infantry. there is a reason why my total kills (2,542) is about 50% more than my total vehicle kills (1,701) for my lightning (stats linked in my signature).

I pug or just roam with skyguard a lot and it's not boring at all. Half the game is positioning yourself at the edge of some objective - where you still get to see the base ownership indicator - with a good view at places most ESF turns around and slows down for a quick kill, or just play cat&mouse with the revenge squad they'll invetably send out after like 2-4 minutes.
Have to have few defensive positions prepared with very few angles to get shot from and alternative shooting positions for the cat&mouse part - mostly against libs. I'd compare it to what sniper style infiltrators do.

But I agree.. playing as just AA and rolling after (or ahead of) stricktly managed platoons can be very-very boring. I ended up with more kills from killing off devastator user HA then actual flyboys most of the time.

Well, when I look at those stats I see that Libs are blowing tanks away (also, literally). So you're in agreement that Libs need nerfing overall? Glad to have you on our side.

Something to consider when using Prowler HE as your high water mark for KPH/KDR/etc; the hours used on all the HEs are far lower than HEAT obviously, but also far less than AP. When people pull HE (any of them) it's because they know there's a farm for it.

You can see the same issue with the Halberd. It's a popular weapon, but people are using it in 1/2 tanks so the "per hour" numbers are weird because the hours spent are abnormally low.

Now to be fair, there's going to be some of that with the Dalton as well. I can see a few examples of people that are getting 100KPH with only 50-ish hours spent.

It looks like there definitely needs to be a bit of work done to account for outliers. But even if I take your comparison of Lib vs Prowler, at best I'd say that means they both need some time alone with the nerf bat.

Sorry, Maverick, but people would rather deal with tank spam than air spam.

All this means....our AA harasser(s) will take out libs a lot easier. And more ground vehicles to be blown up by our harasser(s).

Good days a coming. Now if we can get rid of ESFs and all will be good!

ESF already have plenty of weaknesses. they are already very hit and run vehicles, because of lock-ons, flak, and general weapons fire. my skyguard can drop ESF in around 30 shots and with the rate of fire any ESF that hovers around me for more than 2 to 3 seconds WILL die.

they are getting the rocket pods nerfed anyway.

i predict ESFs will become highly specialized precision strike weapons. instead of lingering and farming like they do currently, they will come in with a specific task/target in mind strike and then leave for another run.

Don't think having abundant tanks would be the problem suggested.
Most bases now have high walls and alternate spawn exits.
Libs hover over those, with fewer we might even see more players engaged.

Obviously I'm not a fan of the current Liberator.
With AP rounds it took 6 direct hits to kill one that players had left to take a capture point, that's way way overpowered.

Hardly.
If anything they could have added a second set of lolpods with different values.

The important part is to make sure no single weapon is allowed to be effective at more than one role, be it AV, AI or AA. Versatile weapons should as a rule not be effective, as that's the price you pay for that trait.
It was always a problem, people just didn't want to consider the possible ways to solve it.

I disagree with you. Nothing wrong with multi-role weapons. I will agree that multi-role weapons shouldn't be OP, and that part should definitely get fixed. (Like the Shredder)

Lets use the Dalton as an example. It's great for killing tanks (we agree it shouldn't be great for infantry) and if you're lucky enough to hit an ESF with the Dalton it's great for killing them too. That makes it multi role, but definitely not OP against aircraft as the skill required to do that is insanely high.

Lotta people don't think the Dalton should OHK an ESF, and most of use that fly a Lib or gun a Dalton understand how ridiculously hard it is to hit an ESF with one, and it should be devastating.

For every 500 people that complain about a Dalton hitting an ESF being OHK, I'll show you ONE guy that's capable of doing that semi-regularly.