Overview of changes currently on test - 12/10/2013

Sorry, that was a typo on my part, I meant to say, "perhaps you have not spent much time playing against VS".

I can sympathize with these sentiments, my point was just to say that when you say "you killed it" you should probably make sure to explicitly direct the "you" towards the developers. Still, you are comparing what ZOE will become with what ZOE was and if ZOE was not balanced then "killed" is a bit of an exaggeration, IMO, because as I said, and you seem to agree, it never should have been there in the first place. This is akin to saying that the developers "killed" lolpods because the skies are no longer blotted out by ESFs farming infantry with relative impunity.

I agree with you in the sense that if the ZOE changes are too much (i.e. suddenly ZOE is underperforming compared to Aegis or Lockdown) then they should probably look into rewriting the ability as a whole. The issue, IMO, is that they should be making lots of small changes throughout in a constant process of data analysis, tweak, data anlysis, tweak, etc. so that balance is ever improving- moreover, this should be irrespective of faction and focused on an individual item basis.

Still, you have to remember that I am NC and have been pretty much since release- i.e. I have stuck with the faction that you can show being last place balance wise from a number of different angles, with loads of supporting convergent and longitudinal evidence, and even when a developer acknowledges that the faction is in a bad place in several respects they qualify the notion that changes will be made by claiming that *some* NC still do okay so they are reluctant to make changes! Yet, where is the evidence that top NC are doing equally well? Not only has this evidence not been presented but in fact there is a fair amount of evidence to the contrary.

I know that is bringing in a separate issue from ZOE, but honestly I think you have to put things in context of the entire game and in that context there is a lot more that needs attention than just ZOE. NC get upset about longstanding overall imbalance and they become a joke but a faction that is overall in a fairly solid position gets up in arms about one specific ability that was not working in the state it was implemented even though they have had nearly half a year to profit from having such a distinct advantage.

I can certianly empathize with the fear that the changes will go too far in the other direction but I do think we both need to consider the bigger picture and remember that if it was imbalanced (I think the evidence is fairly clear) then in a very real sense being upset at the changes should be tempered by 1) the fact it has been around as long as it has and 2) the realization that as upset as VS may be about the changes, the other ~2/3 of the players have been at least that upset for months over having to play against it. Of course, this is not in any way saying that justifies nerfing it into the ground but is meant to emphasize that being upset over losing something that was OP seems backward, IMO, because the way other people see it is that VS should be overjoyed that they were able to use something so powerful for so long (rather than suffer against it for so long).

You say the mobility is all that the VS cared for but if mobility is what drives the OPness of the item then it never should have been coded that way in the first place- would you be happier if it was released in a balanced place to start with, or do you appreciate the time you have had with something that granted a tangible advantage?

TLDR: Consider that if ZOE had been balanced in the first place that 1) we would not be having this discussion and 2) VS would not have had any distinct advantage in this department for the last half a year. In short, VS are upset because they are losing an advantage they never should have had in the first place if things were done properly.

The fast lock on is for dealing with MAX flares LoL podders who fly ridiculously low and just taunt people with lockons who don't have acsess to any other form of AA. The changes are great for pilot's who just want to fly and fight other aircraft but hell for anyone who fly's low and just trolls infantry.

My only criticism comes from that you nerfed the anti-infantry specialist, to be worse against infantry. If Snipers were so bad, that you had to limit them to a certain range, then I will say you have taken an entire ART of combat and massacred it. AV MANA, the LR sniper was the main counter to it. Using 6x and the last mildot, the M-77B can hit a MANA user at 500m. THAT, is true skill. You want a game that REWARDS for skillful shots, for amazing kills, not for cheesy farming and bumbling around.

I can understand the hate for the OHK because of the less than optimal netcode, but LR OHK is not really a problem. It is close range OHK. Shotguns in general are infamous for the close range killing ability, that is why people use them. Sniper rifles are infamous for their long range capabilities and precision. You cut one of these out through this nerf. Can you guess which one?

This game, by your description, is a large scale MMOFPS. Adopting this MLG attitude will end up horribly. MLG is great for arena games or games that are NOT a perpetual war. Artillery is a HUGE part of large scale combat. Bombing is a HUGE part of large scale combat. And to an extent, Sniping is too. People should be encouraged to use these weapons in a support role and they should be encouraged to specialize with them.

Sniping is good. It serves to motivate people to not stand still. Standing still for one second means a death that could have been avoided. It discourages engineers from placing their turrets out in the middle of the open. The Infiltrator is the most specialized class in the game. No AV options whatsoever. Engineers and Heavy Assaults are undoubtedly the best AV units. Medics, LAs, and MAXes come next. Infiltrators don't even make the list. I would really appreciate if you would pick up a BASR and understand how hard it is to actually hit any target that is not standing still.

Infiltrator/Sniper is a class meant for precision and Infantry killing power. Either give us an ability to counter vehicles, or give us the ability to be Long Range snipers. One or the other or the fate of this unique class will fall into limbo.

i still think its too fast as imo lockons are way to powerful against both ground and air - even with max flares now you can only avoid 1 volley of lock on air missles before you have to get out of there or get massacred by lock ons - with a faster lock on time you wont be able to even get near the area
a single infantry shouldnt be so powerful to deny an entire airspace just because he has a lock on launcher

at least if the time was as it is now to start off (which is the max time they will be changing it to) all vehicles will have more of a chance against these weapons and will have the time to react to being locked onto and get out of the area

Unlike before their is lock free safezone at all parts of the sky now you have that extra 50m. It mean's even on indar's highlandas you can still fly high to avoid all ground based AA and If you stay high while attacking you have more time to react and escape. Basically it's fly high or die and flying low at any slow speed will be punished.
If you Get in and get out fast then they don't even get to aim a lancher at you let alone get a lock.

but at that safe zone you cant render ground units and because of the netcode you probably wont render them at all if its a busy area (48+ vs 48+) until 100m anyways
even if you get in and get out fast you still cant get out faster than 1.0 second (the new time)
if the render/netcode was working perfectly then it might not be so bad but now you have to be just about on top of them to render them and by then its too late

what it is doing if effectively eliminating all chance of aircraft attacking ground units even if they have 1 lock on rocket user

Nice to see more damage modifiers. The damage is done so it's just the wait to see it applied universally now. Harasser halberd takes 2 shots to kill. I just wish that would apply to MBT too. Hopefully AP cannons and dalton will be changed too.

Rocket launchers now take 3 shots to kill a MAX and 2 to kill infantry. Decimator requires 1 less.

An unexpected thing is the change to nose guns. I didn't know they would get affected too. Now it takes 4 shots to kill infantry with NC rotary when it used to take 2.

ES AI weapons don't hurt heavy armor anymore. Not that it makes a big difference. The PPA used to be described as a versatile weapon for all armor.

Vortex kills infantry with 6 shots now and has no limits to it's convergence. Kobalt got damage buff from 193 to 200, way too small. Fracture has a little less velocity and seems to have more drop. Pounder has 190 splash damage now and all splash has increased radius to 3m it seems. Falcon used to have 1 and raven where the only with 2.

Limiting our OHK range to 150m is just daft, there is no logical reason for it (other than to possibly stealth nerf the render range) as it takes more ability to hit at longer ranges and has arguably less effect on a battle but gives a better skilled sniper more freedom to pick his or her own engagement ranges.

The infil class has been repeatedly kicked in the nuts in regards to our mechanics, to the point that using the cloak and recon darts is a coin toss and in some cases a bloody liability.

On top of the range nerf we now find that enemies will be able to see our tracers better and more easily tell the direction the shot came from, wonderful.

I get the feeling there is a certain developer bias towards this class, I mean what the bloody hell is the point in a massive open world if we are restricted like this, long range sniping is meant to be one of the perks of using a SNIPER RIFLE.

If this change goes through (and given SOEs track record for listening to ptr feedback it more than likely will) affect one of my personal compelling reasons for playing this game.

To be honest I'd rather see the class split in two, sniper and infil, because having cloak and a sniper rifle on one class seems to be reason enough for the developers to keep hitting us in the nuts like this.

can't say it's surprising that there are even more vehicle nerfs in a patch that consists almost entirely of nerfs, but there was a MANA AV nerf, so that's one good thing.

other than that though, this seems like another substantial step toward COD-side.

yeah the vehicle nerfs are sad
so much for a combined arms game - its getting closer to an infantry game that just happens to have vehicles in it

vehicles need to be more like ps1 vehicles

That makes much more sense, and you would be correct.

Initially, I didn't fully understand just how overpowered ZOE was and this is why I had suggested heavy buffs for the NC and TR abilities as a means to bring them up to par with our ability. In my eyes, this was an adequate solution because I didn't realize just how many were pulling a MAX within our faction. Obviously, the graphs presented show that this would have been a poor decision because of the sheer volume of MAX units on the field.

Upon viewing those graphs, my opinion completely switched towards another suggestion that I coupled with the above if that didn't work...which was the removal and complete replacement of ZOE. Furthermore, the graphs still indicate that the Terran Republic and New Conglomerate need tweaks and light buffs incorporated into their MAX abilities to bring their lucrative state up to the Charge as a proper side grade. Another individual brought up the fact that Ammunition Canisters exist, which I had completely forgot about. They suggested that a reduction in ammunition for each faction's MAX would make the Ammunition Canisters more lucrative, and I agree.

Don't get me wrong...

My mentality isn't simply geared towards the VS alone, despite my complete lack of playing the other two factions. When I heard that the development team was reluctant to provide the New Conglomerate with the buffs that they admit to deserving, I was quite displeased. I offered up a comparison to chess in regards to handicapping yourself by removing the queen and how it was unfair to deny this needed changes just because the New Conglomerate has gotten their **** together. I am in full support of the New Conglomerate being balanced properly and given what they deserve.

ZOE is incapable of being balanced because the only lucrative aspect about the ability is the mobility. Were it to have been incorporated as it is on the private test server right off the bat, you wouldn't have had anyone in the VS using the ability because Charge is a more viable option. The graphs shown would have displayed a significantly less portion of the VS population using their faction oriented ability than even the TR and NC.

The fact that the mobility is the reason why the other two factions deem it overpowered is why ZOE should have never been implemented in the first place. Someone said that ZOE was useful but not very interesting, and they're right...the only reason we liked the ability was because it could be used as a perpetual watered down Charge. That's not interesting at all...but it is incredibly useful. What they have designed now is not useful, nor is it interesting...because none of us cared about the damage boost to begin with and now that has been made the center of attention within the ability itself.

This means that it's a completely failed concept that needs removed and replaced. Meanwhile, as I expressed previously, the TR and NC MAX abilities need light buffs and tweaks in order to make them proper side grades with as much allure as the Charge ability. If this does not happen..................................why do we have the abilities? No one wants to use a handicap just so they can "feel cool" using it, we want side grades that are as lucrative as the alternative options and balanced.

They have obviously failed in doing that with ZOE, it should have never went live.

So, in closing, no...I am not thankful that we were given an overpowered toy to play with for a while...because it resulted in a watered down ability that no one is going to use because the sheer volume of hatred compelled the development team to turn it into a handicap rather than a side grade. There's nothing to be pleased about in regards to having that, except for a temporary point of overpowered gameplay that results in the destruction of a faction flavored aspect of the game...something we have so little of as is.

I don't like the idea of anything faction flavored being crippled to the point that it's no longer a viable option, and that goes for every faction. We are bleeding population, and if this type of pseudo balance of incorporating overpowered aspects only to then overcompensate in the nurfing process continues...we'll ultimately bleed out. ZOE couldn't be fixed, it needed removed...it shouldn't even be added from the start.

I suggested a potential replacement that you can find in my signature thread. I'm not saying it's the answer...but it could be.

I'm not upset that we're losing an advantage we never should have had, I'm upset that a facet of our faction has been effectively terminated by implementing something that no one wants and is essentially a handicap rather than a side grade. I only have ZOE lv1 after all.

Do you really think that playing word games is a good way to get taken seriously? My meaning was perfectly clear to both of us.

Just change the unfair render distance for MANA turrets.

Your words were incorrect and projected an incorrect meaning.

The changes to Nanoweave don't make sniping any easier; the difficulty in nailing a perfect headshot still remains unchanged. The difference is that a hard counter which provided a method of completely nullifying the reward for actually nailing that headshot is being removed at the cost of an entire playing style. The skill it takes to nail a headshot is unchanged.

Furthermore, the hit box is being adjusted so that head shots can't be made by nailing the chest in certain running sequences...which makes the difficulty of nailing a headshot INCREASE. It is, however, balanced due to the fact that you shouldn't be rewarded a headshot if you're nailing the chest.

So, what we have is the following:

A hard counter was converted into the complete eradication of long ranged sniping...and the difficulty of sniping was increased due to a glitch where chest shots registered as headshots in certain running sequences.

I'm not playing word games, I'm pointing out the flaw in your statement.

Not a sniper and equally baffled by the 150m+ nerf, I play mostly HA and haven't felt remotely annoyed by snipers the whole time I've played and found sniping too clunky to enjoy personally. The nanoweave change is long overdue, if someone pegs my head I was either standing still like a lemon or they just made a cracking shot they deserve to be rewarded for, previously because I rolled nano however they didn't, lemon moment or not.

At 150m+ this is even more true, either the motionless lemon quality is in exceptional abundance or the player deserved that kill, what is the point of even having 12x scopes if they don't want snipers to engage at long distances?

Don't get it, would love them to explain their logic on this one.

Sniping at those ranges is already completely irrelivant to your enemy and your allies. You're just a source of frustration on both sides. Your teamates need you to INFILTRATE not snipe dudes who get resed right away or redeploy in 10 seconds. OHKs just piss people off. I know you feel super awesome when you land one but it's just frustrating. People want a fighting chance; they want to win or loose based on merit and skill... not some random OHK from nowhere by a dude they will never find because he's cloaking in/out 200m away.

Your render distance is turned down to 300 meters? I think you need to turn that back up.

Even if they lock on at 300 meters a vehicle (especially aircraft) can easily get out of range before they even fire. If they happen to fire you can still get out of range. The missles have an effective range; they don't just go on indefinately. After 800 meters they no longer work.

"Coupled with making infantry even more resistant to being killed by vehicles" is a broad exageration. They made anti VEHICLE weapons less effective against infantry. Vehicles should be using anti infantry weapons to neutralize infantry. Nanoweave will be net neutral against anti infantry weapons; not more effective. It will be LESS effecitve against explosives.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

I think you're missing the point that these launchers will still end up locking on faster at closer distances. They will simply be a little longer than their vehcile exclusive counterparts. You should be more concerned that the missles are being made more dumb. They said they won't be going around terrain as well as they currently are. That's actually a nerf. This lock-on time is actually a buff.

A thread relevant to the BS you just stated can be located here: Long Ranged Sniping.

Long ranged sniping has a purpose, it's the eradication of high priority targets that impede the progression of our forces in capturing a base. In the defensive aspect, counter-sniping is important to ensure that these snipers are taken out before they can perform their function...and there's still some high priority target situations.

Long ranged sniping accomplishes this better than any other class because a superior field of view permits you the ability to take out targets at completely opposite sides of the battlefield with a sway of the scope...rather than running through the fray. You can take out an Engineer trying to repair a turret...then switch to the Heavy Assault that's just about to rocket your forces Tank into oblivion. While you don't see these actions taking place, that doesn't change the fact that they are...and more defined situations are present within the linked thread provided...as is the entire method of balance associated with long ranged sniping.

This leaves nothing more than frustration as a reasoning behind this change.

Lots of things frustrate me too, that's really not justification for eradication of a completely unique playing style though; especially in a game where the population is bleeding on a regular basis. Even more so when that population you're now alienating often dedicates themselves to this particular playing style and will have no desire to remain unless it's available.

I come from Delta Force: Land Warrior and have waited over twelve years for another game that was big enough to incorporate long ranged sniping and every facet of sniping in general. I stopped playing first person shooters after counter strike introduced tiny maps and quickscoping as their variant of sniping.

The distance-scaled lock isn't being applied to the striker if I read the post correctly, only the G2G/G2A variants. It's a direct nerf.