Notice how NC are the ones most vehemently opposed to this change? Wonder why... /trollface EDIT: Also, non pilot's couldn't care less since it ONLY really effects air 2 air combat really. This will have very little effect in the Air 2 Ground war.... so quit saying it's only ESF haters that are calling for this.
Reaver does it best and fastest, mosquito does it well enough, Scythe is slowest and a giant pancake easy target while trying to change thrust direction
What an idiot then. Strafe jumping, rocket jumping and quick weapon changing is what made quake fun and competitive and NOT boring. Boring is running around pointing your crosshairs at one another unloading your magazines until hopefully the other guy dies first. If he wants to add depth he needs to add more unique ways to kill one another, and add more ways to counter those. These changes and weapons are NOT doing that. Lock-ons and flares are the opposite of depth. They are instant skill cap weapons and counter-measures. And clearly he doesn't fly if he thinks that the person best performing a RM wins. The person who gets the jump wins. The RM just gives people who get jumped a fighting chance - and makes hover fights (the domain of the aces - newbs will get eaten just a quickly without the RM being in the game) less mindless. The game he is envisioning consists of everyone just trying to one clip one another from behind. Dogfights that start head-on are just going to come down to who gets their aim lined up fastest and is taking the least fire from secondary sources. Higby should go fly for a 100+ hours before he starts to try and guess the problems with the air game.
First off, anyone who's flown for less than 100 hours in an ESF needs to just close this topic immediately. RM needs to stay in the game. Period. I can't imagine how stupid dogfights would be without it. Just chasing each other around? The only change I'd support is letting each ESF perform the maneuver equally as well as its counterparts. I don't recall anyone asking for this nerf. Where the hell do these guys come up with these changes? Or was it the whining sallies that post on these cry-baby forums? Complaining that they can't dogfight better than someone who's actually invested time in practicing. The worst part about this game are the p u s s i e s that cry for nerfs just because they're horrible players.
I like the fact that they are adding more options for different play styles. Can't see how that is a bad thing. If they do it right you guys can still be aces at dog fights. You can still do the maneuver if you cert into it, if anything you guys will get more kills from this. Pretty much this
The bad part is this All the aces will cert and use whatever line will give us back the RT power. That will make all other loadouts basically pointless, and thus making a 1 size fits most loadout. Then all the non ace pilots who do use these other weapons will get destroyed just as fast without even the chance to fight back. That is bad for people who are just starting. Noobs will not be able to learn the maneuver, and even if they do in the VR, they will not be able to practice or use it in the wild until they cert up the correct cert line, thus making the first so many weeks of flying / playing pointless to try. The vets will all have enough certs, or be able to gain enough certs to fill out this week one. The only people that lose out are the noobs, and this will widen the already large skill gap. The starting skill gap with aircraft that are incapable of doing advanced maneuvers will turn more into the "EvE Skill Cliff" and make more people want to fly less, unless your an ace who knows what they are doing. At that point, if someone comes up to me and asks how to fly, I will respond "Do you have X certs for AB tank cert line?" If they reply "No" then I will tell them "Its not worth it until you have X certs saved up"
Well I see where you are coming from. But I have to say I think that is assuming that everyone wants to have an ESF vs. ESF set up. Maybe someone wants to be mainly A2G, those roles really aren't too distinguished. There should be a clear difference in higher firepower over maneuverability if they choose to be A2G. What I think is they are trying to accomplish by doing this is to make all the different roles an ESF can have more dedicated and explicit. And maybe change the chassis to make more sense, right now hover chassis is better for dog fighting than the air superiority chassis.
Make hover frame more capable of RM Increase effectiveness of Dogfighting and Speed frames at their own specialties. 3 totally different and viable builds. A RM specced fighter wouldn't be able to keep up with a speed frame pilot. But a speed frame pilot engaging a RM pilot has to deal against that pilots air dancing while dogfight pilots could whip their planes nose around faster to keep on target against a RM pilot. The frames really don't change the flight characteristics enough IMO and if Hover becomes required to RM, then the other frames need to be enhanced in their own roles.
Most of us are in game flying for the last amount of time we can. then preparing to farm the living ******* **** out of infantry so they feel the pain of us no longer in the sky keeping them safe and dogfighting. I have already started using my flying hours in this game to start farming infantry and oh my is it easy killing once you get good I have forgotten due to spending so much time only fighting other air. Just went 45 0 last night in 1 1/2 hour of not even trying. Got a bunch of people angry that I killed them 3 + times, wiped a whole squad, ran some maxes over on some landing pads. Cannot wait for the new Overpowerd weapons now. On VR in TS with the spin up I went 25 kills plus an ESF with one maxed magazine. Oh those poor people on the ground don't know what they are doing. I know most pilots on my server are preparing for the ground pounding these complainers deserve. Those pilots who we get behind will have no chance as we have over 350 hours of aim practice and chasing people (without RM its only thing you can do) will be extremely easy kills (as it already is). They will beg for us to fight each other in the sky instead of them and we will just laugh as our KDRs skyrocket forcing more air nerfs (air has been nerfed in almost every game update since launch (lock on and flak buffs count as nerfs to air). We will fly until air dies to pistols and then only then will we quit this game and the infantry farming. We will be fat happy farmers whos crops of infantry will fill our bellies for years to come.
I beg to differ about hover frame, I hate using that one. Its Mostly dogfighting frame and sometimes racer for me. I have always gone by the notion that whatever frame 'feels' better for you is the one you should use. I feel the dog fighting frame lets me have better accuracy so that is why it works best for me. I still do plenty of A2G with my rotary, although that only comes after there are no air targets.
I'm no flying pro, but I've done my fair share of hours and I'm relatively good at maneuvering the aircraft at high speed through difficult terrain. At one point I saw a Mozzie flying linearly at a medium altitude, an easy kill. I get up real close before opening up with my Vortek but after about 2 or 3 shots hit he does an amazing reverse turn maneuver, flies past and underneath me, is now behind me and lights me up. I try my own reverse turn maneuver and whilst I got the desired effect of a high amount of displacement and for him to stop shooting me, I got disorientated and he was able to finish me off. Br 16. He PMd me later saying that he was actually AFK when I started to shoot him and he is actually a Br 80 on miller. Additionally there have been plenty of times where I have been shot at from behind, reverse maneuvered, now higher and facing my target and the unsuspecting scythe/mozzy has got a facefull of vortek. So no, the best reverse maneuver DOES win and having the jump on someone when they can just backflip their way out of it does not give any advantage 9/10 times. Sometimes getting the jump on someone gets you a win, but not if they can reverse maneuver relatively well. EDIT: Just checked my stats. 48h in reaver, 6h in lib and 38 in gal. As I said, no pro, but it's still a big chunk of time.
No, what that is is a lesser pilot getting owned by a better pilot. Removing the RM is just going to keep you from doing the same thing to a pilot of lesser skill than yourself... and so on down the line. If he was flying in a straight line he could not have gone right into a reverse maneuver. You can't enter one until you bleed all of your speed. You just totally blew you jump is what you are describing. The AB part of the reverse maneuver only applies to the end of the maneuver. You first have to hit the brakes and start your turn backwards. To enter a RM you have to come to nearly a complete dead stop, which any decent pilot will take advantage of to nearly decimate you. You may be mistaking hitting him hitting the brakes and turning into you for a RM here. If you let someone doing an RM get behind you - you REALLY messed something up. You should be able to keep your nose in his general direction if he is looping around you doing a reverse. Losing him behind you sounds like he hit the brakes and you fly right by him as he was turning. And 48 hours is very low for piloting. At 48 hours you are just getting good at not crashing into other planes and trees. You won't find an ace with less than 200 hours - and even that is on the low side. Don't mistake the best pilots making use of the RM for being killed by the RM. You are getting killed by good pilots, not that maneuver.
Ok, I completely agree, but about this part. I've been skilled enough to weave in and out under tree cover in indar with about 2m between me and the ground for yonks now. That said I'm still terrible at dog fighting, but I've been a skilled pilot in every other aspect for ages. Does the player stats page log time in VR? I have spent quite a while flipping and flying in there. I'm personally still unsure where I stand as far as RM. I can't decide if it gives an unfair advantage, if that advantage is perfectly fair or if it's a needed variation in flying so the game can stand out from other games that offer air-to air.
The RM works both ways is the thing. As you have experienced, learning to maneuver without banging into things generally doesn't take THAT long. Getting decent with the RM only takes about 5 hours of playing around with it in the VR and in game. The best pilot on our server (Helios before the merger) was Fearmypewpew and my first encounters with him ended like the one you described. No matter how good a jump I got on him the engagement would end with me nearly instantly dead. Once I got the RM down though I was able to survive him jumping me a few times long enough to at least face him before getting destroyed. It wasn't until 100+ hours before I actually was able to get him smoking before he killed me. Over time I ended up with the highest number of kills against him (though he was still better than me, I could get kills on him if I got the jump). We ended up actually being great in game friends and flew together as wingmen all the time. My point with this, before I could compete with him the RM allowed me as a lesser pilot to at least face him. It also allowed me to live longer - often long enough for some other friendly pilots to get in the fight and tip the balance in my favor. Without the RM as the lesser pilot I would have just been a slow moving target with my back to him getting smoked over and over. Getting solid at aiming and guessing the proper lead takes the longest - but you won't even get practice doing that if you can't face the guy jumping you. New pilots will get the RM down long before they master aiming. While the ace pilot may make better use of the RM (which is kind of the wrong name, because usually in dogfights its more just vertical thrust), the ability to juke is of more benefit to the pilot with the inferior aim - who mostly is looking to buy time.
This is a re-post guys, this thread seems to be more active than the last 1 i posted in. forgive me if its not all relevant but i made points about posts in the other thread. I'll try and explain why this nerf is bothering pilots so much by using a tanks as an example. We at SOE have noticed that experienced tank drivers effectively use the game mechanic of cover and terrain to their advantage by ducking in and out to return fire on enemy tanks. This is causing issues for new and in-experienced tank drivers and therefore we have decided to reduce a tanks ability to accelerate and decelerate by 75%. This will ensure that players who practiced their tactics, aim and control of their vehicle will not consistently destroy players who have not. Experienced tank driver: this nerf is ridiculous, everyone has access to cover and terrain, they only need to practice their game play in order to reach the same level of success. Inexperienced / new tank driver: This nerf has been a long time coming, I'm sick of good tank drivers abusing their ability to move to kill me. Pilot: I don't drive tanks all the time, but when i do i expect to be able to destroy people who have practiced longer and have better aim than me without attempting to learn those same skills. This scenario is not EXACTLY the same I know. What it does is demonstrate that, like terrain and cover in my example, the reverse maneuver is something that is accessible to EVERY player in the game, It only needs to be learned. Using the mag rider nerf was a terrible example because the MBTs are fundamentally different in almost every way. The Mag rider had a ridiculous KDR against other tanks of something like 2.8 for memory. ESF are fundamentally the same, they all handle similarly apart from slight variations. In order to effectively use thrust flight you need to learn to preform the maneuver first, this is essentially the easiest part and anyone can do it. It becomes far more complicated as you learn to return fire while undertaking it and even more so when your enemy is flying in a similar manner. You need to be able to compensate for your own movement, your enemies movement and your bullet drop. You need to do all these calculations and simultaneously be aware of your altitude, the rounds in your magazine, the rounds in your enemies magazine and the amount of afterburner fuel you have available to you at any given time. Personally the majority of my gameplay is undertaken on the ground as infantry but the ESF is definitely my most used vehicle. I consider myself a good pilot and I'm sure a number of enemy pilots on Briggs would agree. Experienced players SHOULD be able to defeat less experienced players, it goes without saying. Practice makes perfect, this nerf takes a game mechanic that is avliable to everyone and reduces its effectiveness by 75% to cater to people who couldn't be bothered putting in the effort to learn it. As a side note i've seen that scythe video before, he has excellent aircraft control and he uses the terrain very well. That said those enemies are horrible, they cant aim and have very little understanding of leading targets or predicting the course they take.
Well said Medlen. You nailed it. The mechanic is available to every player in the game. I hate how much SOE caters to noobs who would rather complain than put in effort to get better. What these noobs don't realize is that they're not getting better; the skill cap is just getting lower and lower. ****... I hate these cry-babies.
