TR LMG Analysis

Alert everyone, long post incoming.

First off I'm going to leave this image here so people understand that I know what I'm talking about.

I have an auraxium medal on T9 Carv, T16 Rhino, TMG-50, MSW-R and working on getting it for the T32 Bull.

Now that you see that I'm not talking out of my ***, allow me to begin.

Cetification Slots

I disagree with the notion that TR LMGs are bad or inferior to their NC/VS counter parts. The main problem with the TR LMGs are some of the certifications which you can get for certain weapons which make no sense. For example why can't the T16 use the 2x Reflex sight or a compensator?

Admittedly it doesn't require the compensator to be effective due to it's already low vertical recoil however the 2x Reflex sight would be great on it, yet it doesn't have it available.

I feel that by adding more certification options on weapons where they make sense would go a long way on improving the TR sentiment that their LMGs are the worse.

T9 Carv and Beginner Players

Now many people here say that the T9 Carv is a beast, I don't know if they use it or simply they die a lot by it. If they die a lot, then all I can say is that obviously you're going to die a lot by the standard TR weapon. If you say it's a beast then you must be new to the game or not very good a shooters.

The T9 Carv is considered the best standard LMG by beginners due to the high ROF and 100 mag capacity. What they don't consider is the reload speed, which makes them have more down time, and the horizontal recoil jitter which can't be compensated which I will also get to.

Beginner vs Veteran

Why do I bring up the beginner vs veteran so much? It is simple. "Bad" players or beginner players don't know how to control their recoil for burst firing. This is why high BR players say that the Gauss Saw is one of the best LMGs in the game. It has a high damage and an easily controllable vertical recoil. For beginners who spray and pray however, the Gauss is horrible and the Carv a weapon crafted by the gods.

The high ROF, relatively low vertical recoil and the 100 mag capacity means that noobs can shoot away and are almost guaranteed to hit their target. As I said above, this isn't good enough for better players. They try to make every bullet count.

T9 Carv Jitter - Why it's balanced

Now, many many TR players claim that the horizontal jitter must be removed from the Carv. I disagree and it comes from what I said above, it's a beginners weapon. Higher end players already have more options in the TMG-50 or T16. The Carv is made for beginners and if you remove that jitter then it can quite possibly become OP. Imgine the Carv without the jitter: 100 shots, easy to manage recoil, high ROF. Boy if it didn't have jitter I would have sex with the gun.

The other TR weapons

Now the rest of the TR weapons is quite simple to categorize:

MSW-R

You have the MSW-R, our CQC lmg. Nothing wrong with it. People complain that in a world dominated by shotguns and SMGs it has no place however I disagree. Give it a foregrip and 1x Reflex sight or NV and you got yourself a good jack of all trade guns which leans more for CQC.

What really makes this gun good for all around use is the easy to manage recoil and the fact that most engagements in the game are in medium to CQC range so unless you're in a rare open world battle, the MSW will be useful for you everywhere. For good players who love to stay on the move and rack up killstreaks the low reload time will make it even more beautiful in their eyes.

T32 Bull

After the MSW-R the next gun in line is the T32 Bull which tries to be a jack of all trade but in my opinion fails compared to the other LMG which can be used. The problem is the T32 doesn't know what it wants to be. On one side it has high reload speed with 60 rounds in the mag and on the other hand it has these attachments to make it for a longer range LMG (Compensator...).

Frankly it seems like the T16 attachments should be on the T32 bull (extended mag anyone?) and the T32 attachments on the T16 (compensator/2x Reflex sight). I actually wouldn't be surprised if a programmer coded it wrong and SOE decided to just leave it as it was.

T16 Rhino

Considered by many the best TR LMG, and I understand why honestly. It has the highest bullet velocity and almost no recoil while still maintaining 100 rounds and a relatively quick reload speed. The gun also has a decent fire rate which makes it not extremely stupid to use in CQC. What the gun is horrible at is the attachments. As pointed out above, it seems like it's attachments were mixed up with those of the T32 Bull.

Alas however, this is an excellent gun for your average TR player and is only 250 certs (Last I checked). It isn't great at anything, but it's good at everything unlike it's older brother the T32 Bull which is mediocre at everything and good at nothing.

TMG-50

My favorite TR LMG with the MSW-R and T16 in a close second. The damage it deals along with the easily manageable vertical recoil and 75 shots in the mag make's it a ****tier version of the Gauss Saw. However it has it's advantageous over the SAW which is the higher ROF and faster reload speed. For me 2 big plus.

It's wide range of attachments give's it another big plus. So overall the gun is made for long-ish range and people who know how to get headshots. Why do I say long-ish? Because when you're in true long range combat (which as I said earlier is rare) you should either be in a tank or playing infiltrator. That simple.

Conclusion and how to "Fix" TR LMGs

I personally feel that the TR LMGs are fine where they are with the exception of the T32 Bull and perhaps the Carv S (I didn't go into detail because it is merely the standard Carv but with more attachments and slightly lower ROF).

The T32 and T16 simply need their attachments turn around. I feel that the T32 would be far more viable with those extra rounds from the extended mag and the T16 could obviously benefit much more then the T32 with the 2x Reflex sight and the compensator.

The Carv jitter as I said earlier seems balanced.

So, while the TR weapons aren't specialized in anything, they are good as all around weapons and especially with the CQC and mid range combat which plagues the game. So overall, I think they are balanced.

Good analysis right thhere Adenn, very well argumented unlike many of the other analysis threads

Because it's supposed to be a short range gun. None of the dedicated short range guns have 2x sight or compensators. Or Adv. grips for that matter.

Except for Carnage BR. That's why it's OP.

Oh wow. An honest review of the TR LMGs made by someone who
obviously has a lot of experience with them. It's rare and refreshing!
He even understands and reveres the TMG-50. I'm amazed!

You are incorrect. The T16's weapon description says that it is made for long range sustained fire support. You see the T32 is supposed to be the T16 but for shorter range and the T16 long ranger with the TMG-50 the longest range.

Also if it was made for short range then why does it have such low recoil and high bullet velocity? I'm sorry but you are incorrect. It simply was an error on the developer's part imho.

lol thanks

bumping so that this thread is more constructive then the other TR whine thread.

I have close to three k kills with the CARV, and even after I gained auraxium with the TMG and MSW-R I still longed for my trusty carv. I never used anything but the forward grip on it so I didn't realy have problems with managing the side to side recoil, and the TTK is simply superb.

I recognise the strenghts and weaknesses of the MSW-R (low clip size, no acess to the 2X reflex, superb hipfire and basicaly an upgrade to the Carv in almost every way) and the TMG--50 (superb recoil managing, large acess to acessories, 167 dammage but lower DPS than it's cqc competitors) but i have become good while holding a Carv, and with a Carv I preform best. Call me sentimental but I would like no other tool in my hands to spill NC and VS guts all over auraxis and spread carnage and death in the ranks of the misguided and treasonous. There is no other weapon like it, a generous capacity that allows me to mow down traitor after traitor without ever needing to reload and the rate of fire with which this chews trough it's ammunition belt, tearing enemies apart in no time. The CoF gets bad quicly tough, and the recoil is terrible without forward grip, but overall, if you can propperly burst fire and know at what ranges to engage, it is a very solid weapon. (just terrible at hipfire accuracy tough, not viable beyond 5 m)

I simply love it.

As for the T16 rhino, I find it a bit lacking in RoF to realy go toe to toe with weapons such as shotguns, and at stock (or with extended mags) the strafing accuracy is also lacking (something which the T9 compensates for with sheer volume of fire). On the other hand, it's CoF is remarkeably tight, even with extended fire and it is easy to find a medium-long range niche for it, or just to spam it at a group of enemies in the distance to keep them supressed (very good with extended clip since it just keeps on going and going for ages). A very solid squad support weapon, I have no clear opinion on how it would preform with forward grips attached. 2X reflex is beyond perfect for this weapon, why doesn't it get it?

The T32 and carv S as of yet do not hold a place in my weapons collection, therefore I shall not be able to divulge my opinion on these instruments of destruction and justice.

I can sum it up through the major buff/nerf cycle since launch.

At launch the CARV (as well as the TRAC-5) had 3 distinct advantages that allowed it to outclass out other guns by a wide margin.
- Low vertical recoil
- High Rate of Fire
- (At the time unknown) flinch mechanic.

With in the first couple of months I made a TR and VS alt to do some informal weapon testing. What I recall about the CARV was the recoil and spread didn't cause you to miss until around 7th or 8th shot, unless it was moderately long range. At long ranges (around 100m ish), you could actually pulse fire 3 rounds and expect 2 out of 3 to land once your dialed in. This was an insane level of accuracy where the NC would only be able to single shot due to vertical recoil.

Then there was flinch. At the time it would kick your aim up, by a single value, on a per hit basis. That alone caused high rate of fire weapons to instantly destabilize the low RoF ones (which already had higher recoil values), regardless of who shot first. This lead to a very noticeable trend where, in TR vs NC fights, an NC could start unloading up close and the TR could spin around and kill his attacker. That edge was lost with the high RoF NC weapons, like the GD-7F, EM1, and GR-22, essentially putting the NC on somewhat equal terms, making them heavily favored. ScatterMAX was also heavily feared by TR because its the only weapon that truly outclasses them in the area where they had no other competition.... and the NC ran them a lot because of that.

With the change in flinch mechanic came 2 additional changes (I think time line was the same). TR weapons were given more horizontal recoil to off set the naturally low vertical recoil. All weapons have this, but high RoF weapons become less predictable by virtue of the number of times it can change direction (which is why the GR-22 lost popularity to the CarnageBR with its adv forward grip). In the case of slow NC weapons, this horizontal shift is less detrimental as a players tend to fire smaller bursts, and have more time to read the movement between shots. As a result, low RoF weapons see recoil as a line, where high rate of fire ones (even with adv grips) see recoil as a cone. With target profiles being smaller at range, a cone becomes too unreliable and generally avoided, unless a grip can keep it under 0.5-1 degree of deviation.

The second was normalizing the recoil/DPS of NC weapons (quote unquote buffed them) after heavily nerfing them post-beta. The competitive power of previously "crappy weapons" quickly stared arguments, mainly revolving around the Merc, Anchor, and EM6, and have been stealthily adjusted over further GUs.

Much to the TR's complaint, the CARV was no longer capable of all-situational operation, and were now forced to thoughtfully select load outs and tactics when facing the NC and VS. At the same time, the NC gained a huge skill gap advantage, having been on the receiving of flinch for so long, learning to compensate (both tactically and reflexively), and were now capable of dishing it back. So much like the NC6 Saw, the CARV now has a higher skill floor, but is no less dangerous in skilled hands.


Overall the TR still have infantry CQC dominance, with much better hipfire due to the large mag and high rof, but the gun mechanics are intentionally limiting past 65m. Vanu dominate med range due to having mostly vertical recoil but with high rof, while NC do best at Med to long range due to the higher damage tier and softer fall off (caps at 85m). But a universal rule still stands.... the game simply favors high RoF weapons under medium range, where most infantry fights occur.

Exactly, and that is what makes me think that TR are balanced. Whilst at long range NC generally dominate us and VS a wierd middle point of high ROF and vertical recoil we have high ROF and high horizontal recoil but since the game favors CQC over long range the NC's advantage isn't such a big deal and VS and TR fight for CQC dominance.

So I believe that the only TR weapon in need of a buff is the T32 Bull since it doesn't seem to have any identity. That aside I believe TR LMGs are balanced.

Also I'm happy to see this is an actual discussion and not random trolls coming in whining about OP or UP. Keep it up

Hi. Just came over from PSU.

A very interesting read, I must say! The people I've asked for advice before buying a new LMG usually didn't venture much further than "TMG-50 is best for long range" and "MSW-R is good for everything else". I figured that out from the in-game descriptions already, see? What I hadn't had until now was a detailed Analysis of the role of each weapon. From this thread, i got not only that, but also a comparison between factions, the shift of power between factions over time, and the reason why my Initial switch to TR to become OP by using the CARV didn't pay off NEARLY as much as I had hoped. (I died to the thing SO MUCH in beta!)

If I could ask you for anything more, it would be one thing: Which current TR LMG competes with the NS LMG (I suspect it to be the T16 or MSW-R)? And how good of a job does it do at filling that role (which instances would you recommend that weapon over another/ another weapon over the NS)?

I'm sorry if I've been asking that question a lot lately, I'm planning to both buy a new LMG and get some Station cash, so I wanna get as many opinions as possible.

I'm going to disagree with the NC being weak at all in close range. With the insane damage the Gauss SAW has, a player that can actually control their gun can mow down TR and VS up close since they only have to hit you like 5 times to be lethal, and they have 100 shots to do it in.

That can be said by every gun technically though

Obviously they aren't defenseless but a in a straight up fight Gauss would probably lose.

I trialed the NS LMG but absolutely hated it. It's been a while now so I'll trial it again and see if it changes my mind.

The general consensus from other players however is generally that the NS LMG is a weaker version of the T32 Bull and as you know I don't like the Bull. I would recommend the T16 honestly for an all around weapon and switching to the Carv (or even better a shotgun/SMG) for CQC.

I respectfully disagree on nearly all of your points on the bull, t9, msw-r and the rhino.

The rhino is honestly similar to the bull without soft point, 100 rd mag, and less accurate while strafing. Both have insanely easy to control recoil. Personally I prefer the bull to the rhino as long as I am not lone wolfing.

As for the cqc lmgs in the t9 and msw, I have no idea why people put foregrips on cqc lmgs. The side to side recoil is easily controllable up to the edge of irnv. Msw is the best cqc in the game. Period. I say this with over 7k kills w the orion and the fastest aurax ive ever earned with the msw. The T9 is good, but not great. I still use it for cqc to clear points of multiple people when reloading after 50 rds wouldnt be an option. The trick with the t9 is to not full auto and strafe past 15-20 rounds depending on the range. The t9 is a very underrates cqc lmg. I encouraged my friends in exoc to give it a try for point clearing again and they all agreed it is better than they remembered.

All in all, the TR lmgs are good but the line shines in cqc/med range. I havent tried the tmg but have heard some really good things.

With regard to the 15m, it is insanely accurate while strafing with full auto. You need to get headshots with this weapon. Try using it with foregrip and a 2x or 3.4/4x. Don't use hv. If you only ads, try using comp.

The T32's ads accuracy is insignificant imho since the adad nerf. I can see people liking it but as I said on PSU the MSW-R does everything the Bull does but better.

People put foregrips on CQC weapons so it becomes viable as an all around weapon. Just about every range except directly in front of you (aside from the Jaguar Carbine and SMGs/shottys) you must ADS if you wish to make the best of your weapon. I played extensively with the MSW as seen above with the adv laser but I found myself doing much better with the foregrip.

Now everything is opinion based but I'm trying to outline what your average player may think. I haven't played the Carv in a while so I will give it another shot but it used to be my favourite weapon until the nerf. Since I was 200 kills out for auraxium I just gritted my teeth and grinded it.


And I've noticed a pattern here. Everyone consider's TR LMGs to shine brightest in cqc-mid range. In other words: Not underpowered unlike what the thread Ned started says.

Finally, someone actually understands the game. Will you marry me?

I liked the Rhino before it was cool. I used to bullseye womp rats with my T16 back home

As a BR 72 NC player, a BR 13 TR player and a BR 16 VS player, I can say the T9 Carv is a great weapon. The reload time is a non issue since the clip is so big; just as it is with the Gauss SAW. (which is a meh weapon BTW) Jitter is also a non issue due to the decent accuracy and clip size. Aim for the torso, dont always look for 733TPROMLG headshots. I can kill several enemies with it before reloading. Burst firing helps - something I learned with the Gauss SAW. No, its not a spectacular weapon, and Im sure there are better choices. There are always better choices as you earn certs and get away from the default guns. However, it is far from a bad weapon. It is decent enough to where I dont feel like I need to get new guns for my TR HA, but I certainly did for my NC HA. I always laugh when people say the T9 Carv is bad.

1. SMGs and Shotguns get 2x reflex sights.

2. Carnage BR is OP?

3. Even if the Carnage BR were OP (which it is not), are we really saying that the sight is what is unbalancing the weapon?