rebalance infiltrators

In your example you said that infiltrators can just pop in and out of cap points when in fact there are very few located with easy access from the outside or where you can easily peak without getting shot at by someone close to said opening. If you keep getting shot to heck perhaps from the outside, perhaps it is prudent not to stand out in the open and also make the "peaking process" harder for said infiltrator by making the player slice the pie in unfavourable ways. Not to mention the constant going in out of shield should tip you off exactly which door this player is peaking in from. Running and crouching on and off is another good way to both throw them off your position and aim since they might just pre-aim towards your last ping on the radar. In other words, be unpredictable and force line of sight issues for the infil + allow you to be the one who fires first. Best of all, this works on everyone.

The fact some people are complaining means nothing. Not a single one has put forth even the tiniest shred of data/evidence of any kind that infiltrators are OP. All I've seen are a bunch of HA players who are upset there is one class they actually have to employ a slightly different approach to instead of just pressing 'F' to win.

As for the 13 pages, there's been a few people who's kept the thread alive. Again, nothing but personal opinions and logical fallacies, e.g. the competitive scene restricts infiltrator therefore it is overpowered when, in fact, those who do restrict infiltrators also have quite a lot of other rules which changes the rules for how the game is played. Some of them specifically restrict SMG HAs.

Whoa, excuse me sir, I have posts in those 13 pages that are against any nerds to infil based on unfounded opinions.

The servers are getting updated to accommodate for server lag, and a nerf to punish specifically BASR users is stupid. I never say your NEED to be at point blank range to use a BASR, but you get the most damage when you are that close, so if both users are in point blank range, you are getting the maximum damage output. You wouldn't always be in point blank range, of course, but that is just for figures.

A 0.5 delay just so that you don't get one shot headshotted by an invisible dude running around sounds pretty good in theory, but there are already things in place to counter them. Why nerf them any further? You can hear them cloak and uncloak. If they are running basic Nano Armor Cloak (NAC), you only have 6.5 seconds to get to them. I am not sure how fast Infantry runs, but I think it is 5 or 10 meters per second. Somewhere between there. That means if they have a full NAC, they can cross somewhere between 32.5 to 65 meters. You can hear them start their cloak within those meters, so theoretically you should recognize a threat is coming your way and to deal accordingly with it. At least that is what I do. With the Hunter cloak running at 12 seconds, you will hear them start their cloak from 60 to 120 meters. It will be a quieter sound, but you can still hear them. If they spam recon in your direction, like someone with a BASR would do before charging a point unless they are trying to be extremely stealthy, then you would also know their is an infiltrator in your area. If your teammate died before you to an Infiltrator, you should know there is one in the area by looking at the kill spam or hearing the sound of their sniper.

I have already said this before, but Infiltrators have to hit the head with the BASR to kill you. "DUH SCROFFEL THAT IS OBVIOUS YOU RE STUPID!" How often do you hit the head on the first shot against a moving target? Probably not very often, even with an automatic weapon. If you are fast moving, it will be harder for them to hit you. They would have to lead you further because of how fast you are running if you are in close range, so you will then have to run into the bullet after they have shot. If you are a slow moving target or a still target, boom! headshot, and it is probably your fault. There is another possibility. If you see they have shot recon darts in your area and you crouch walk or are still (preferably crouch walking), an Infiltrator won't see you on the minimap and be a bit surprised when you pop out and most likely kill them.

You keep saying that my situations and examples are stupid, but at least I am trying to account for other possibilities. I do not think that Infiltrators are fully balanced, but sniper infiltrators are alright. If we just think about CQC BASR Infiltrators in a reasonable and logical way, we can come to a conclusion. If we take an automatic rifle, the bullets are of a lower caliber than a sniper rifle, but you can spray down multiple targets. It is decent in all ranges if you can aim well. With a shotgun, that is meant for close range and do a ton of damage in that area. A sniper rifle does high damage at all ranges with a higher caliber bullet, but is slower firing than an automatic, has less bullets per mag, has to rechamber after every bullet, and is heavier than a shotgun and automatic rifle. You have to hit your shots and is only really good in long range, unless you can hit your shots close up.

Why did I say any of these? If you can hit your shots, you should be rewarded with a CQC BASR. I have played many games that have snipers in them, and I like to try to use them in close range, because if I can hit my shots, I can take them down. The only other variable in Planetside 2 is that it is on the class that can cloak, but realistically, if you have a class that could turn invisible but it was weaker healthwise, wouldn't you also give it a C4 and a high damage weapon? If you had a class that could turn invisible and hack stuff, wouldn't you make it hack vehicles? If you had a class that could turn invisible, hack stuff, including vehicles, and had a high damage weapon, wouldn't you give it a jetpack so it could fly? If you had a sniping, flying, invisible hacker class, wouldn't you also give it an overshield so it wasn't so weak and let is heal stuff and let it repair stuff? Oh wait. All that stuff made it too heavy and the cloak can't handle it anymore. Guess we can't give it all that. My point is, it could be much worse, and this is a game based on war. War isn't balanced, but the Infiltrator is pretty close to it. It has pros and cons and so many different playstyles, but if you want to hit the head in close range with a CQC BASR, you are gonna need to hit the head.

Higher kda is a fact and it's a myth that this doesn't translate in higher score per hour.

Only because you didn't provide the evidence to feed your narrative. That is how this works after all, give less than half the information required to make sound judgements so you can paint a picture.

Listen, i simply started to play infiltrator... It's OP as ****... especially the SMG one and I'm going to abuse it. The score i have with it is higher than the score i have when i play other infantry classes.

Finally someone in DBC will realise how many players they are losing thank to this invisible crap.

Anecdotal experience is not proof, fact, or evidence. Statistics are, hence why I mentioned you failed to provide them when making your claim.

We do not have access to score per hour data ... only DBC can check it.

Then why make that claim....?

Because it's obvious ? If you play this game your direct experience point you to check how infiltrators are performing. As soon you check the data you have access to , you can verify that infiltrator are over performing in KDA.

The only thing we need to check now is how they are performing in score per hour.

Kdr doesn't translate to kills per minute nor score per minute. But hey, if sitting in a corner has gotten you some gains on a stat you hold value to then go for it.

Numbers and stats won't make a difference. I already mentioned some, but they didn't do anything. I think what we need right now is logic and reasoning, because if you have that, you are usually right. If things don't make sense, if there are no reasons for "why", then it is probably wrong. Infiltrators may seem OP because they can close ground on you. The other classes can be easily seen running up, while an Infiltrator can do so unnoticed. I already suggested "nerfs" to make the class more fun, but I forgot that this is a purely infantry killing class, while every other class has a tool or two to deal with vehicles. Here is how we can solve that. We can (A) give Infiltrators vehicle hacking (see Class Discussions > Infiltrator > Vehicle Hacking Thread made by me for my ideas) which will give Infiltrators an anti vehicle role, then we can do the nerfs I mentioned (see Class Discussions > Infiltrator > my other post, the title of which I have forgotten) and move forward with those suggestions or (B) we can keep the class as it is, designate it explicitly as a solely infantry only role, (literally just write it somewhere in the game) and stop complaining.

Snipers are good. There is no logical, reasonable, or statistical argument you can make otherwise that the devs will care about. The Stalker cloak needs just a small amount of work, and I already explained that in my other post on Infiltrators in Class Discussions. The SMG Infiltrator, IMO, should be taken away, and the Scout Rifle Infiltrator (Auto/Semi) should be buffed drastically to reward for headshots. Also, Doku needs to add some Empire Specific Auto Scout Rifles. We need more variety, because if we are being honest, the Tomoe is the best choice. Very rewarding for headshots and I think that is what an ASR should be like. Comment your opinions below.

Side note: Give the Railjack a secondary fire mode, like every other ESSR.

Infiltrators clearly have a bad impact on new players experience. To the point when new players will quit and never come back after 15 first minutes. I'm saying this because i've tested it on my own skin: returned to PS2 after a year and got instakilled on every corner by infiltrators.
Infiltrators are OP. Mostly with close-range BASRs: Ghost, Tsar, SAS-R. Quick scoping is ridiculously OP on a weapon which can make one shot kills.

Infils are fine. Morons like you whining for nerfs however, are not.

This was a pretty interesting post. I'm retired from sniper to running a stalker nearly all the time, but I can speak to most of these:

"An Infiltrator sniping 300 meters away is unreachable by any weapons except another sniper rifle, battle rifles, some scout rifles and possibly the Blackhand, all dedicated and specialized weapons, so sniping is relatively safe. Even safer considering that finding a sniper takes time and you expose yourself while searching."
--Tanks and planes. Planes and tanks. Part of being a sniper is spending a *lot* of time picking a spot where you can shoot-move-hide-shoot again, and while it's fairly easy to hide from other players at 300 yards, planes and tanks kill snipers alllll the time at that range. Same with turrets. Vehicles can take you right out to the sniper, close the distance, kill him, and bring you back into the battle in no time. Not sure why anyone whinges about it - it's not like you see a pile of snipers at the top of the leader board. Total Kills is King - snipers might have a generally higher KD, but it'll be the career maxes and HA's at the top of the killboard.

"If you snipe from the spawn-room is 100% safe so you could theoretically achieve an infinite KDR if you wish."
--In practice, it's pretty tough to do much damage as a sniper in the spawn. The shields schmutz up the scope zoom something awful, and people learn pretty quick where the shots are coming from. The only infs (in my humble experience over the last 6 years) who play this game are the battle rifle guys and the noobs who haven't figured out the learning curve yet.

"Anyway, why should that bother you?"
--Exactly.

"If you play to have an high KDR then the solution is in front of your eyes: play sniper. If you want to make a difference on the battlefield then you have plenty of other roles (HA, LA, Medic, Engineer in no particular order) where you can help your faction."
--I play to get a high KD as a stalker, because it's an interesting challenge and because I'm old and can't go toe-to-toe with the reflexes of the younger twitch crowd anymore. Experience and treachery will usually beat youth and skill! The issue with snipers having a high KD doesn't have much to do with their range, though - it has everything to do with their *patience*. If you're an infiltrator, your KD and effectiveness is directly proportional to your patience and self-control, and awareness of your surroundings. For my money, though, if you want a high KD (without building it in a tank or plane), kit out a stalker, get CatLike and Ammo Printer, and learn how to be *patient*. Don't take chances, Don't pull the trigger unless you're *sure*. Get some altitude (trees, ledges, etc), and make sure you've got a bolt hole. KD of 30 ro 40. Wish I'd known this crap before spending all that time as a HA the first few years!

I do not perceive the nonsense said in such form

Hahaha! 0 hit kill knifes? That would be a hack. Anyone would have a problem with that.

Yeah, sniping is safer the further you go back, but the further you go back, the less targets you are probably going to be able to hit and the less impact to the battle you have. You get a higher KD because you die less. So what? You also have less kills, which means less certs in the long run. Lets say that within 150 meters, as a sniper, you are getting 2 kills a minute, but you die once every 2 minutes. That means you get 4 kills for every 1 death, and that means a 4 KDR. Say you are 300 meters away, you get 2 kills every 5 minutes but die every 30. That is a 12 KDR. You are getting less kills, but a higher KDR, and most likely contributing less to the battle.

Except it isn't an issue. It's literally the point. One class sacrifices 100% of its versatility at the alter of Killing Infantry, so it's hardly shocking they would be the best a it.* Their only counterplay against vehicles is to hide and hope they get bored.

*I'm going to take this opportunity to point out again that in the really, really, real reality of the game right now, when an Infiltrator and a Heavy Assault walk into a bar 99% of the time the one who walks out again isn't the one holding the sniper rifle. Just saying.

How convenient for your argument this is. Put a pin in this we'll be coming back here in a moment.

50% ACC with a bolt action is considered to be unusually high by the standards of this (and pretty much every other) FPS title, and the number of players who can achieve it according to the statisticals is very low. Even assuming the players on that list are all unique and don't have any separate accounts which would artificially boost that number.

Basically, even at the top level performance isn't as consistent as you seem to suggest, and the presence of that tier of player is far less common.

Umm, yes he is? If you cannot control the flow of people getting to you as a sniper you die. I don't care if you're Elusive1, if you get caught by multiple opponents that aren't potatoes you are going to die before you can cycle that bolt. In this case the only thing your motion detection is good for is to tell you how screwed you are. It's a minimap, not a bloody reality warping device. We are talking about live scenarios, yes?

On your say-so, of course. Also Association Fallacy.

Hmmm...

-

Oh well gee bud, why didn't you say so?

I'd appreciate it if you would respond to what I actually said instead of to what you wished I said. The size of the fight greatly impacts what is "uncounterable". A large, chaotic fight greatly restricts your ability to control engagements as a sniper, which incidentally invalidates a goodly number of reasons for which you consider the class to be overpowered.

Not only this, but a large, chaotic fight by its nature substantially increases the chances of your death in general to everything from grenades to vehicles to teammates, all of which can happen instantly and with no counterplay whatsoever.

Remember that pin?

Your position that the Infiltrator class is overpowered seems to be heavily rooted in situations where you can control every aspect of an engagement to the point where your scenarios read like a Tom Clancy novel. "Equal skill" is assumed when it is convenient, but situations where it would factor against the infiltrator are ignored or brushed aside.

You have a great amount of skill, but this also places you into the bracket where things you take for granted are relatively uncommon within the common player pool, which taints your assumptions as to what the average player is capable of with one class or another. On top of this many of your references come from an environment which is relatively controlled, condensed, and overall pretty unrepresentative of the experiences of players on the Live servers.

The experiences of players who have come here are of course invalid because Planetside players are unique from those of every other genre because they just don't try very hard. Unless it suits your argument. All the "good" players are perfectly content to suffer in silence waiting patiently for it to get fixed instead of doing what players in literally every videogame ever do and complaining loudly about the thing that kills them.

Your annoyance isn't a measure of imbalance. Playstyle has everything to do with it, as does awareness of your surroundings. This isn't quake or fortnite - there are a *lot* of thinking players who will take their time, skip opportunities to take a shot, and not pull the trigger until they're sure. I'm an inf, and I often have a KD over 20 - my total kills in an entire evening of gaming might be only 35-45 in several hours, though. If you're getting killed a lot, it's because you're doing things that make you an easy target for infs, not because infs are overpowered (I could argue that they deserve a buff, in fact, but I have the feeling this isn't the place).

Once you see infs owning the top 3 or 4 places on the scoreboard, you can come back to us. For now, no one is buying it.