Take off Forward Grip from your Pulsar C (thx Wrel!)

Its not accurate enough to be 100% sure. But the rounds hitting the silhouettes shows a trend, and enough of one to convince me, at least to take the grips off and see how it plays out. I was able to see five different weapons show the same results. The odds of CoF skewing the results to be the same on each of those is really slim.

Though I'm not going to turn down someone's efforts to do a video, I just don't have the means of making one myself (well I do, but my upload speed isn't up to par and neither is my harddrive space to store it).

I don't always 100% trust the VR. Next time I play a few rounds of PS2 I'll be doing it with the grips off. VR can be useful in showing things. But at the end of the day I like to field test it what I see in there in game and in practice. Sometimes bugs in VR don't translate to actual gameplay or vice versa.

But that's where a field test and a video would do wonders. Unfortunately I can't provide both. But at least with us discussing it, perhaps someone with the means will take notice and put one together. Or better yet a dev sees it and goes 'da fuq..?' and runs their own tests.

I don't believe anyone here is implying this will actually make the bad weapons suddenly top tier. It might but its doubtful, that doesn't mean we shouldn't test the issue as I doubt its intended.

This changed my life. I have used Grip on everything since launch because i always ADS, even at close range.
I even sometimes pick Adv.Grip guns just because they have Adv.Grip...

It feels like grip helps, maybe its just been placebo. Going to test this in VR right now.

Did I imply this will make bad weapons top tier???

I just said people dont have to go crazy over it because it is not so bad. Like this guy

"This changed my life. I have used Grip on everything since launch because i always ADS, even at close range.
I even sometimes pick Adv.Grip guns just because they have Adv.Grip...
It feels like grip helps, maybe its just been placebo. Going to test this in VR right now."

Just tested it in VR, its "not so bad"

yeah right, its f***n vacuum like that.

f.grips ads stability to X dimension recoil => fewer missed shots at distance => mOar headshots => m0ar fr4gs => L33T


example - The "butcher", its pure A$$ compared to a T9 Crav with a F.grip.

Multiple tests that I performed with different weapons. My methodology is explained in this post.

DarthGr3g's statement is completely baseless. There's no proof of any kind. That's how system should work, because it makes sense. Unfortunately, the reality does not make sense, and does not work that way.

Here are real tests with Gauss SAW and grip.

Videos:
Without grip
With grip

Recoil patterns:


As you can see, even though Gauss SAW didn't make it into updated list, it has the same issue as Pulsar C, because horizontal recoil tolerance theory math doesn't live up to the real world.

Without grip, SAW's recoil pattern width (arc) is 0.175 * 4 = 0.7. With grip it is 0.1173 * 6 = 0.7038.

Thankfully, in case of Gauss SAW, difference in width is minuscule, while the difference in recoils of individual shots is massive, so the grip is still largely beneficial for the SAW.

I may be on to something. Maybe I was going all wrong about Horizontal Recoil Tolerance.

Previously, I thought that maximum accumulated horizontal recoil must not exceed HRT in either direction.

But what if HRT is actually split in two, but can be exceeded once?

It would make sense, and it would fall in line with the vanu labs video.

The game checks if current accumulated recoil is larger than HRT / 2, and if it is, the recoil is forced to go in another direction. This explains why there's no malfunction when Vanu Labs set HRT to 2.0 while the horizontal recoil was set to 5.0.

This explains why SAW is "supposed" to be able to kick three times in each direction, but actually can kick only 2.

Without grip, if it recoils twice in one direction, the accumulated recoil is 0.175 * 2 = 0.35. HRT / 2 = 0.525 / 2 = 0.2625. Since 0.35 > 0.2625, the recoil is forced to go in another direction.
And with grip, the accumulated recoil from 2 kicks in one direction is 0.1173 * 2 = 0.2346. HRT / 2 = 0.475 / 2 = 0.2375, and since 0.2346 < 0.2375, another kick in the same direction is allowed.

**** I think I figured it out Finally we have a workable theory about HRT.

So laser sight master race?

Iridar does this mean you would actualy suggest laser over grip on some weapons, that are supposed to use the grip. Like Pulsar C?

Okay, here's a postulate.

T16 Rhino: 0.2 / 0.2, HRT = 0.7. With Advanced Forward Grip, it becomes 0.134 / 0.134 and HRT = 0.65. HRT / 2 = 0.325
T32 Bull: 0.2 / 0.2, HRT = 0.5. With standard Forward Grip, it becomes 0.15 / 0.15 and HRT = 0.45. HRT / 2 = 0.225.

If my latest theory about HRT is correct, I will see following results in tests:

T32 should be able to perform a maximum of 2 kicks in one direction, both with and without the grip. T16 should be able to do 2 kicks without grip, but 3 with the grip, because 0.134 * 2 = 0.268 < 0.325.

I want to note if my theory is correct it would explain why weapons with massive HRTs, such as Orion with its 0.9, I was still not able to recoil more than 2 times during tests. So I will also retest Orion. It should be able to recoil 3 times, with and without the grip.

I'm off to perform tests.

For now I recommend using laser on Pulsar C, yes. Right now I have a brand new theory to confirm, and if it's true, I'll have a whole new understanding of HRT, and I'll have to think more on the issue before saying anything conclusive.

huh ...

i use forward grip on most weapons

lately i frequently play my tr, so i guess its not a big deal then for me - but definitely good to know

btw - here is wrels review of the the pulsar c
(he starts talking about recoil at 3:30)

My tests were a success. We finally know what Horizontal Recoil Tolerance is. As we thought before, it affects the "arc", the "width" of the horizontal recoil pattern. What we didn't realize is that HRT is, in fact, that width.




I've tested and confirmed this theory on T16 Rhino, T32 Bull and Orion. I've been thinking long and hard on this issue. Years, literally. This theory explains every inconsistency in previous theories, so right now I'm fairly certain we finally know for a fact what is Horizontal Recoil Tolerance.

With this new data, I'm gonna create an updated list of weapons that are actually made worse by Forward Grip.

Eh. I learned never to use forward grip on any weapon ever. The Advanced/Forward Grip simply never was very good to begin with. The equip delay gets you killed, and guns with wild horizontal shake simply don't get better with it. Laser sight is superior in every situation for the same reason the Compensator should never be used on any gun ever.

! FINAL UPDATE !

Now that we know how actually Horizontal Recoil Tolerance works, here's the updated list of weapons for which forward grip increases the real width of the horizontal recoil pattern.

Carbines:

• Pulsar C (0,175 -> 0,2345)

Assault Rifles:

• TAR (0,594 -> 0,66825)
• Equinox (0,4 -> 0,45)
• Pulsar VS1 (0,4 -> 0,45)
• Corvus (0,3 -> 0,3375)

LMGs:

• EM1(0,4 -> 0,45)
• Gauss SAW S (0,35 -> 0,39375)
• VX29 Polaris (0,4 -> 0,45)
• Flare (0,4 -> 0,45)
• NC6 Gauss SAW (0,35 -> 0,35175)
• T16 (0,4 -> 0,402)

In case of T16 and Gauss SAW is very small, so Advanced Forward Grip remains a strong upgrade for them, even if it increases the number of kicks by 1, this has no negative effects.
For other weapons on the list the increase in number of kicks leads to increase in overall width of around ~10%. It's been a long day for me, and at this time I'm not ready to state if this make Forward Grip an undesirable attachment. Perhaps, try and see for yourself.

Aaa, so weapons can go over their Horizontal recoil tolerance. So HRT is not the actual border of your horizontal recoil. It just tells your weapon to kick the other way if it goes over it.

So the best Horizontal recoil is when the sum of your Hz recoil matches HRT. For example if you have horizontal recoil of 0.2 and HRT of 0.4! Not necessary the smallest. (Like that of a Pulsar C with a Grip)

I like theorycrafting It brings us light. It makes such an obvious choice of putting AFG on Pulsar C almost obsolete. AFG could actualy reduce its accuary/consistency!!

Yeah, you got that right.

Not necessarily. Horizontal Recoil Tolerance leads to breakpoints in the number of kicks which determine the real width of the recoil pattern.

The best horizontal recoil tolerance that is smaller than horizontal recoil when the tolerance is divided by two.

When accumulated horizontal recoil is equal to HRT / 2, it can still go an extra kick. So weapons with 0.2 / 0.2 and HRT of 0.4, like Reaper DMR, can still kick up to 2 times in the same direction.

Basically, if the horizontal recoil is X / X, the best Horizontal Recoil Tolerance would be any value below 2X (but not equal 2X!). This would mean only one kick in one direction relative to the starting point, and the real width of the pattern of 2X.

Pulsar C is an example of that.

The next best thing for HRT is any value below 4X. Most weapons in PS2 fit in that category. This means total width of the pattern of 4x.

Looks like DBG has stuff to fix!

So Pulsar C with Hz recoil of 0.175 and HRT/2 of 0.15 will only ever make 2 kicks in one direction (it takes 2 kicks to get from far right to far left)

af-19 mercenary with Hz recoil of 0.175 and HRT/2 of 0.225 can make up to 4 kicks in one direction (it takes 4 kicks to get from far right to far left)

Well Pulsar C is the only carbine/Assult rifle/LMG to have HRT/2 lower than its horizontal recoil that I could find.
NC stock burst carbine and Assult rifle also have HRT/2 of 14 and Hz Recoil of 14. So they can also only have max 2 kicks in one direction.

This is kind of very strong. 2 kicks vs 4 kicks...

And some LMG have a whooping HRT of 0.9 but still only max 4 kicks (bigger kicks, but still only 4), but if you put a grip on them they can do 6 kicks in one dirction (Carv with a grip: Hz recoil = 0.16875 and HRT/2 = 4.25)