Take off Forward Grip from your Pulsar C (thx Wrel!)

Just f***ing tested that Pulsar C with F.grip+Compensator and a 3.4 scope

i call on BULLSH**T.
In close range (for that gun) there is little difference between ls and a grip.
from mid to long ranges Pulsar C without a grip is loosing accuracy due to horizontal recoil kicks in.

so whats the F***N point in this thread?
that grips work as intended ? (% lowering the X recoil)

Well the more gun shakes left and right, bigger is the chance that you will miss.
Pulsar C can kick left and than it will go back to the center, but if you put grip on it, it can kick 2 times left and than maybe go back to the center or even just stay on the left side.

And still you didnt learn how to not swear...

I have read the entire thread, and specifically Iridar posts.

I saw the videos showing the direct impact in using or not Forward Grip attached to Gauss Saw.

And I saw all the maths and pictures done by Iridar.

After all that, I could not go away without letting him know how impressed I am, not only by how serious and solid he did this, but on how big this finding is. I use FG in every and all weapons I have. And I have almost all (and some exceptionals).

I really hope DBG devs see this thread and do something about all the findings done by him.

Hands down to Iridar, for such an usefull and excelent thread.

The easy explaination of this "bug/mistake/feature" is the fact the (A)FG decrease two related values in different ways:
HRecoil is decreased by % so it's dependant on the former value
HRT is decreased by a fixed amount.

Y'know, it's next-level theorycrafting and iteration stuff like this that makes me glad there's smarter people than me playing this game. Good work, Iridar!

A rubber band rather than a wall, basically.

Thanks a lot Iridar for figuring this stuff out! What disturbed me from your videos was the gap between pulsar-c grip vs no grip didn't seem all that wide (you reached about the border of the white line) which seemed somewhat confirming the theory from DarthGr3g (essentially that grip increased things a little), and i must say my eyes were a bit blurry on that 3~4 shots issue, while it looks so obvious now that i watch again properly.

I love when stuff like this gets figured out.

I guess that now i must re-do my whole spreadsheet then!

It's not. You're just not grasping the concept of tolerance at all. Range is about alpha damage and low RoF to get very little recoil and as little bloom as possible. So yes on your first 2 shots it's alright. But if you're going above, AFG on the Pulsar C screws you.

That's it. The conclusion would then be that at closer ranges in ADS, AFG and LS are about similar, medium range would favour LS (in ADS still) because your bursts are going to be >2 shots, and longer ranges would still favour AFG.

After having run over the whole thread and watching people re-create the stat interactions that the developers laid-out, and listening to people say "developers, look at this," my question is what do you want them to do with it? make the Foregrip nothing but a positive across the board? or conform to the exceptions and make consistent its positive/negative?

No wonder I stopped using my Pulsar. Thanks, mans

In my opinion, weapon balance in general is very much in need of consistency, of conforming to an archetype of sorts. I dare think that if weapons conformed to the general expectation you'd have of them would be a nice feat.
HRT is just the most obvious item about it (especially on a default gun archetype like Pulsar VS1), but by no means the only one. Just another example: the Cycler TRV is supposed to be the assymetric equivalent of GD-7F+Serpent VE92. All weapons made for an ALS and CQC. Yet the TRV was given a 0.5 penalty to hipfire CoF, which has no meaning whatsoever.

Stuff like Pulsar VS1 having a tolerance penalty, or TRV bearing a hipfire CoF penalty should simply not exist.

The thing about this issue is that forward grip make certain weapon worse in the area where they are supposed to make them better. Basically it's like oil grease that increases traction, it makes no sense.

What I would have devs do is to streamline the system, like they once did with hip fire accuracy and laser sight interactions.

There really is no reason why, for example, 2 different weapons intended for the same range and kick the same amount of times should have different tolerance values. It reminds of an old anecdote:

A man asks a sheepherder:
- How much wool your sheep give each year?
- Which ones, black or white?
- Black.
- 2 kilos.
- And white?
- Same.
Man's surprised, but keeps asking.
- And how much they eat each day?
- Which ones, black or white?
- Black.
- A kilo.
- And white?
- A kilo too.
Man becomes puzzled.
- Why do you ask which sheep if the result is the same?
- Because black sheep are mine!
- And who owns white sheep?
- White? They are mine too.

That's how tolerance is. Despite having different values for different weapons with same horizontal recoil, it often leads to the same amount of consecutive kicks, so it's kinda weird why the game bothers asking if the result is the same.

Unfortunately, fixing that would mean a balance pass on each and every weapon, so that's unlikely to come.

I thank each and everyone of you of helping me out in this scientific process, even though I wish I could put my freshest results in the OP.

My next video is going to be in-depth weapon mechanics guide. Some things are easier shown than explained by words, and HRT was the last missing puzzle piece.

It's all Higby's fault!!!

Thanks, you're very kind

I'm not sure if you have seen it, but I have a weapon mechanics guide on planethead.info, which explains other things.

Something eludes me still on your numbers.
Let's take the NS-11A for instance (0.2 base; 0.6 HRT). So without grip we've got HRT/2 = 0.3 on each side. So on your burst first shot gets at 0.2, then second shot at 0.2 again makes for a total of 0.4 on one side, before being forced back to the other side.

Then with grip (0.15 ; 0.55 HRT), we should be having HRT/2 = 0.275 on each side. So it would take 2 shots to get past the 0.275 threshold on one side, before kickback, because 0.15x2 = 0.3, which is >0.275

As such why do you say that you'd need a third shot to reach the threshold?

Made me rethink everything I assumed recoil was

I don't know what life is anymore.

I lost track of the things I posted; where do I say that?

In the google spreadsheet that you linked actually. I went through it all and on some values i'm not getting the same results, so my understanding of your rule might be off.

The spreadsheet I uploaded is outdated / wrong, here's an updated one for you:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...3L8HdHCUN3Qcay6Y-UyCc03bes/edit#gid=626605687

I've Auraxiumed the NS-11A, and the Pulsar VS-1 with laser sight, sans grip & a 2x scope.

No wonder why people hate the Pulsar, apparently if you use the grip you are doing it wrong. My guess is that the same applies to the Darkstar, which is why I absolutely hate that piece of trash.

Apparently I didn't set free access to the spreadsheet; anyone should be able to view it now.

Thanks for the updated spreadsheet! So the "NS-11A issue" is gone, but still some points where my calculations disagree with yours. Let's pick Corvus for instance.
Its gripped recoil is 0.1125 which is exactly 1/4th of its gripped HRT at 0.45. You consider that it will go up to a 3rd shot despite it being exactly at its tolerance level. I've tried in VR, and from what i see with the 6x scope+hold breath in VR, the gripped Corvus only goes twice on either side.
Same thing on the grip-less LSW. Also you forgot Carv-S and didn't take AFG into account for Carnage

Overall the list of weapons where i find grip being a penalty to arc width are:

I've updated my spreadsheet with my own calculations, and according to what i observed for Corvus. Also the user of that kind of data must remember that foregrip also has an influence on bias, so even on a gun with worse HRT but pronounced bias, avoiding foregrip is not necessarily for the best. The Aug06 spreadsheet data is inaccurate for the directive ARs for instance, which are displayed with the bias of the original gun, though when you look at the numbers in the API, it's very obviously -25% on bias