Ikanam Biolab

One of the teleporting rooms need to be on roof inside the dome so it's not campy.

Why not just put airpad all around the dome, each with an entrance inside, and more than 2 or 4 jump pad ? And an airpad at the top ?

It would be nice to see a galaxy landing at the top and then a squad of LA swarming inside from the roof !

Also, remove in every base the stupid non-deploy zones ; they are the 0 degree of tactic and design. Both attackers and defenders should be free to put sunderers where they see fit and where the terrain allows it.

Anyway, it's good to see that Devs are still improving bases.

Ok do you really think a bare teleporter will not be campt if every second one single guy is plopping out of it? Free Certs for every camper. Thats a really bad idear. Instead of that you should add just one possibility on the top of the dom to enter. As you redo it now, its more campy than before!!

And for a good test you should announce two ore three days / times for a big battle. Then you can see the real results.

I'm awaiting taking a look at it... tomorrow.
No matter what it turns out to be, nice to see a bit of change.

I don't understand all the whining. It was previously too difficult to attack a Biolab, so now the devs made it easier to attack.

Probably due to the fact the scales are now tipped in favor of attackers while defenders lose out. Since they have only one real method of getting in the biolab, the spawn point. Only way I see this evening out is remove the SCU and maybe another spawnroom below or under the biolab. Since its now going to be hectic. With more openings for attackers.

Removing the SCU means the defenders will have a spawn they can at least fight from without running the risk of it being a quick swarm of enemies who destroy the SCU instantly.

Or an alternate spawn under the biolab for lower defense would help.

Don't normally post on the forums but I watched the video on the new look and can say that in the current state would lead to some real sweet farms and some very angry rage quits. Fight your way to the bio just to walk through a teleporter and dying. Walk back through die. All of course while throwing sticking grenades and getting the farmers and rinse and repeat. What is this max crash coming in, welcome to c-4 heaven with tank mines oops just wiped an entire platoon, to bad.

What I recommend
1. A larger bio lab. How do you ask we make it bigger, could simple just make it a bigger circle and take those satellite bases surrounding them smaller, could eliminate them now since they have no teleporter any more. I say make the bio lab a pyramid made of 4 pyramids (3 at the same height and 4th raised up and in the middle with the flat bottom up for the top) that make up one large structure and add a reason for those satellites to go down. Also for the gens just eliminate the lattice to satellites and just connect it to the bio itself, these areas are meant for a fight leading to bio labe and the attackers will need and want to access the 2 pyramids

Best flow would be a pyramid, since I lack an actual photo here think a triangle to the north, southwest, and southeast with a central 4th triangle that is in the middle and raised up to create and area touching all the other pyramids. Now all 4 can be accessed via external doors or pads. you would have 3 air pads with lifts and jump pads to the respective satellites. The middle raised triangle would have roof access maybe with anti air turrets since gal drops would be that route in and light assaults/beacons this generator would be on the roof.

Give them a generator that adds a flow into the bio lab, maybe not a base but just gen with this could lead to external fights around the bio lab, could lead make them defendable by both sides and have a reason for the enemy to want them and not destroy and abandon. Now for the flow each triangle contains a point 4 points in total with the generators down that would grant you passage from that triangle into a kind of a courtyard area to pass into another triangle. So if the north gen is down you could pass to the other 3 points from that side. However it would still have sealed return passage that gen was not down on the opposing side. The spawn room would be in the middle below the central pyramid giving defenders paths to all points and a teleporter to an underground vehicle bay with several routes out through tunnels.

2. I do believe the teleporters should be kept in some way but in fashion that makes enemies want to stay far from them but also want to obtain them. I would recommend consoles near the teleporter. While being held by defenders it leads near the spawn room, while held by the attackers it leads outside. It allows for quick movement of troops but if your team holds it they can't clearly can't be farmed at it.

3. Put the scu on a time cap like it is at tech plants. Avoids a squad from doing generator and then scu then points. I want to earn the base not ninja it. Place the scu in a location under the spawn to promote flow from the 3 lower pyramids. Since it would require 3 of 4 points being cap for base to flip.

4. For the upper pyramid add in some cool clear shields, allows soldiers above to look down into the biolab. Plus I enjoy watching others die.

5. For the landing pads, place yet another generator that controls a shield that can be fired through by sides at the door way. This means this would create a small bottle neck but gives the defenders a chance at that door and the enemy can still bring down that gen and also move freely to 2 other door ways and bring down those gens. The shape being a pyramid also adds attack lanes from defenders from the roof down to the 3 pads.

Those are just my thoughts.

The first comments had me a bit worried, as I wasn't a fan of the last changes, but... it's actually not that bad of a deal.
These are sound changes, if you expect a fight biolabs were designed for.
The problems lies in reality, however, as the annoying fights are the 100vs100 ones: Biolabs are just not meant for that many people.
Where in other bases the obnoxious explosive spam will eventually curb the problem somewhat, Biolabs don't have that questionable "luxury". Changing everything around it is somewhat refreshing, but it won't actually change anything. Sides making the satellites pointless, maybe.
Why not keep the Teleporters Painfields (Maybe energy lines on the ground?) while letting the shields off on the teleporter rooms, prevents camping without giving too much security.
The Vehicle Pad was better before, I'd recommend giving biolabs a "cellar" with a few underground rooms that finally lead to teleporters, maybe somehow capturable or otherwise harder to camp on the upper side. It would give a little bit of vehicle play under the biolab even, and on Ikanam you could have a direct side entrance to said cellar.
And while you're obviously experimenting, maybe try out an old-style spawn, but with the actual spawn area and shields only on top and the lower building accessible?

Ok my idear was,. kick out 90 % off all buildings in the biolab, and make it a BIOlab. So the only crow plants in pots,.. then its more open. That has the effect that a spawnroom cant be camped like that. Less doors means less door camping.

this is the worst idea i have ever seen for a biolab!

why completely make the satellite bases useless?

why make jumppads to the landing pads a suicide mission (without way back)?

why have teleporter rooms without protection from camping enemies?


it seems that, not only was this idea not fully thought through, but it is rather totally terrible and gamebreaking. i'd say BETTER KEEP WHAT WE HAVE ON LIVE INSTEAD OF IMPLEMENT THIS EXPERIMENTAL STATE

The No.1 problem is limited ways in.

Solution. Two doors cut into the sides (at 90 degrees to the pads) for foot traffic.

To make the door in use stairs and raise it on a platform, have a closed platform inside too so attackers can fire down but no defenders (except jetpacked LA) can get up there from inside. Problem solved.

Attackers have a spam free entrance where they can jump down into the lab from the closed walkways, defenders can try and shoot them but with now 4 doors instead of 2 thats harder to watch. No need to change telerooms, no need to destroy the vehicle level.

Extended Idea: Repoint the jump pads to the new infantry jumpdown doors.

Second Level Development: A small open lower level of walkways below the dome with access stairs down and up (theres space, I used to park scout ESFs under there and go for dinner ) would add options while still keeping the enemy vehicle level 360 degree.

If you really want to fix Bio-Labs, then you need to merge then with the satellite bases.

• Make the capture points at the old satellite bases count towards capture of the main dome. In most cases that means 3 of the 5 capture points will be out at the satellite locations, the main dome will only have 1-2 control points.
• Add a SCU shield generator + SCU room to each satellite base that will disable the spawn room for the defenders at that satellite location. This will let attackers "take over" a satellite by turning off the SCU for that location and pulling spawn sunderers from the vehicle term - but doesn't prevent defenders from sneaking in and repairing the SCU and SCU shield generator.
• Do not give the attackers a hard spawn point at the satellite bases just for flipping a control point (which is one of the dumb things you did at Freyr / Sungrey).
• Cap timer for the entire complex should be changed back to 5 or 6 minutes if you hold 5/5 points. If you hold 4/5 points, it should be a 10 minute cap, and 3/5 points would be a 20 minute cap.

By putting 2-3 capture points in the satellite bases, you've just eliminated the meat-grinder that is the bio-lab and spread the fight over a much larger area. Which will help with local performance because now a 96v96 is spread across a much larger area instead of being compressed into the doorways of the bio-lab.

Merging the Ikanam satellite bases with the main facility would have many useful benefits -- with the least required work. There's no need to change how teleporters / jump pads work if the outlying facilities become part of the main complex.

- Lithcorp Secure Mine now connects directly to the Ikanam complex, as does Lithcorp Fortress and The Auger. Which simplifies the lattice and means three fewer bases on Amerish.

- Defenders start with (4) hard spawn points, which can all be disabled by attackers using the SCU Shield Generator + SCU at each outpost. With a timer of 60 seconds to kill the SCU shield generator and 60 seconds to kill the SCU itself, a fast moving attack force can cut all defender spawns at the facility in 2-3 minutes. Destroyed SCUs = no spawn camping.

- If attackers do not position forces correctly, defenders could rally a defense at one of the outlying satellite and use it to push back into the main structure. At a minimum, a defending force could galaxy-drop at one of the (3) satellites, grab control of one of the five control points and lengthen the timer. Which gives time for a second galaxy-drop at a second satellite to take that capture point and provide a second spawn room for defenders.

- Defenders who choose to hole up in the bio-lab proper, and camp the air-pad entrances and teleports will eventually lose (20 minute timer if you control 3/5), because 3 of the 5 control points are no longer inside the dome. Defenders have to push out and control at least one of the outlying control points in order to keep control of the facility.

- It spreads the fight out across a larger area.

(A very good example of this is how the fight plays out at West Pass Watchtower on Amerish or Crossroads on Indar or Crimson Bluff. The attackers have a moderately easy job of controlling B and C points, while the defenders can easily control the A point. The winner is whichever side can control two of the three.)

Actually jumppads and teleporters, coupled with safe-zones are the reason why Biolabs are so awful, it is good seeing that the Devs at least try to change something about it. IMHO removing the safe-zones (Shielded teleporters) will REDUCE camping a lot.
The defenders can now PUSH through that teleporter instead of being restricted to camping outside of them. Yes, there will still be some camping, but it will no longer be inherently tied to the safe-zone which effectively forces people to camp the teleporter buildings.

So while some points in this thread are valid (e.g. only one vehicle exit), I do like these changes.

I like change.
Personally I would like to see biolab farming eliminated as it is now.
Too much manpower goes into "farming" while we are on an alert or need assistance where it counts.
It is a sinkhole of wasted time.

Biolabs are a cacophony of cheese the game can do without imo.
Mr.Engie who sets his sunderer up at the bottom to get as much xp from spawns and the guy who wants his their instead decides to c4 it.
All the bob and weaving through the bottom shield is mind numbingly painful to witness its existence.
It is one huge campfest.

As it is now on Test it looks awful and with no purpose.
If it were to go live as-is, I would at least suggest some cargo lifts and storage containers on the bridges between the pads and teles to give infantry a cover to advance and limit tanks ability to farm infantry.
Give it the appearance of shipping goods in or out and not the appearance of, well, it looks like wreckage atm lol.

I have a suggestion though but idk if it is feasible.

It could be a 3 stage attack.

Stage 1 - Using the Biolab as it is on Live Server, have 2 Generators, one on/under each bridge, that supplies the lower shield.
Giving the attackers/defenders some buildings and/or cover to fight on the ground.
Stage 2 - Inside the Vehicle bay another generator that supplies the actual dome shield.
Stage 3 - Dome Sheild disappears and infantry/air could enter/fire from any direction.

The main problem I see is that if the dome "shield" cannot be made to work as the typical shields in this manner.
This would split up the numbers.
They could use the lift pads while also attacking the shield generators and also the defense as well.
This all without satellites.

Wait, can you ACTUALLY get into the Biolab from down there, or is it JUST the Neutral Teleporters?

I agree, but in the opposite direction...
As Roy's video pointed out, the LEGS are where people are drawn to trying to get up to the Dome, why not rework the legs into stairways leading into a sub-basement of the dome?

That would make them somewhat similar to the Original's Bases, only upside-down, and I've always hated how LITTLE the area underneath the dome is used in the game...

Well Jump pad juggling is probably the problem they are trying to solve by removing the return pads, but I agree that it's a bad move from a defensive standpoint.

Offensively, if the pads are camped bad enough that you don't want to stick around, you are probably going to be just as screwed heading back, because that's when the enemy will be willing to push back to the Satellite and you're just going to be followed back by a trail of Heavies...

THEY ALREADY HAVE LEGS, WHY CAN WE GO UP INSIDE THEM?!?!

I agree with you, the real issue here stems from how the Biolabs were primarly designed to be taken from Beta; From the AIRPADS!
This is poor squad on squad level design, and a poor use of verticality overall.
The Airpads should be the BACKDOOR of the Biolab, not the front!

Hell, we don't even need stuff to do down there, just make it so we can climb up the legs already!
With Leg Corridors come leg stairs, with leg stairs come landings at the joints to break up the firing lines that also serve as areas for attackers to hole up in, hidey-holes for attackers means nooks and crannies for defenders to clear out, clearing out means spreading the fight more evenly over the structure!

No it won't, because that's EXACTLY how we had it in Beta...

I second stairs up to the biolab. Stairs up the legs, provide terrace around the exterior "lip" of the biolab, two more entrances to the biolab on the sides. This with the teleporters should open up the biolabs to more engaging fights.

TL;DR - Most of these changes give the defenders even more of an advantage. The rest are neutral.

Teleport Rooms
The lack of shields on the teleport rooms will cause attackers to get cut down the second they pop through. Because of lag and loading time, not everyone will show up at once. Lag may also cause someone to materialize, but not get control for a crucial half second.

Because the shields are gone, the area the campers need to occupy gets a lot smaller. They have direct line of sight to a doorway exactly one person wide. With the state of live, campers can't maintain a direct line of sight to the teleport room, meaning that they need more people to cover the same area. Thus it (in theory) gives the attackers a couple of different options for pushing out. In practice, only one of the ways out of any current teleport room gets used, because it's the only one that leads to an objective.

With this change a squad of heavies with shotguns and rockets can probably deal with almost a platoon. Add in a couple of engie turrets, and it's a no-man's-land. Shielded teleport rooms gave the attackers to ability to actually get ready for a push.

Putting the remote end of the teleporters inside the no-deploy zone makes the attackers have to run from their Sunderer, thus giving the defenders a chance to reload and reset their defenses. This is likely fine, as long as there is a counter-balancing factor. The problem is that there doesn't appear to be one.

Jump Pads
Making the jump pads one-way makes one bit of travel asymmetrical. This is an interesting concept. Leave it in, I want to see how this plays out. <rant>Making asymmetrical win conditions is something more games need to do. #Netrunner</rant>

Theoretically, I don't have a problem with putting the jump pads outside of bases. Functionally, a Sunderer always gets parked next to it, so there's no real difference in spawn/travel times there. My problem is where you put them.

Since there are no lattice links between satellites, attackers will be pushing against a lethal choke point at a substantial disadvantage (the landing pad), while getting hammered from their flank at all times. The trouble is that now the attackers will be in the middle of a field, easy prey to enemy magriders heavies/snipers on the cliffs above.

In both cases the jump pads are directly visible to the landing pads. This gives defenders a major advantage even before attackers get to the biolab itself. All defenders need to do is park engies, snipers, and burster maxs out on the pads. The maxs keep attacking air at bay, while the rest turn the remote jump pad (a pleasantly constrained target) into a minor apocalypse. (especially Vanu since accuracy/range is their thing) The jump pads need a wall/hill in between them and the landing pads.

Mines, turrets, and shotguns pointed at the landing spots is the exact same problem as with the teleport room changes, only without the lag/loading issue . But that's the same as it is now.

Closing
I want to echo the calls for more of a running fight up the legs of the biolab. More travel vectors (spaced far apart, or at least not sharing the same LoS) will give bio-labs the shot in the arm they need.

I like that you're trying different things, but I'm concerned that you're not learning the right lessons. The biggest problem with bio-labs today is the same as the lattice system's failure. You're pushing lanes, not fronts.

This may work for League of Legends, but LoL is a substantially different game.
Focusing on the differences that can actually be compared:

First and foremost: the population density in LoL is much, much lower. (big fights good, dense fights bad)

Secondly, while there are three major lanes - there are a ton of criss-crossing pathways between them.

Without a major redesign (adding more travel vectors and putting a lot more space in between facilities), bio-labs (and the lattice system) will continue to be the SNAFU they currently are.

I do not like the new design, today it is easy to defend because of the few entrances.
My opinion is that the new design makes it easier to defend. Video At the beginning of the thread has many good opinions I share.
I see the new design as a one-way ticket to farmville

Summary: The new design is not good enough.

Apologies for the quote snip but didn't want to put up a wall of quoted text

The problem with external walkways is going to be drawing rates and things associated to that; hence why internal layers / tiers would make better sense in my view (imagine the frame rates of drawing players plus walkways etc. where everything "has" to be rendered for everyone in view or in view of); the way I understand it the more you can effectively hide (but still track) the better the result would be.
Sure the odd exposed walkway can be there but the majority needs to be internal and not rendered to save performance.

As for the layered progression - I think that needs to be strongly considered as well as it can't just be ignored in lieu of "bigger design = better"; for example in a 4 tiered layout you wouldn't want to attack to the 2nd tier only to die and have to restart all the way at the bottom and equally you don't want to run all the way from the top to the ground floor as it'd get boring on both sides very quickly (abit of a time sink is fine but excessive ones stink) - capturing hard spawns internally give the attackers that rolling front line of progression however equally importantly it places emphasis on the defenders to not just sit in their ivory towers at the top waiting for them, there has to be a drive for the push/pull flow of battle (obviously this can be mixed up with points flipping but these are things to consider placement once you've got the solid design). That and overall it can add the chance for a different dynamic to flipping the base as opposed to just one big "let's smash numbers together".

And I totally agree that the landing pads are effectively the risk/reward back entrance to do your reach around manouvers routes - try hit the defenders fast and take the fight top down.

Defenders already sit with the greater advantage in the design but you don't want to tip it so much so that it's just another base that's steamrolled by greater attacking numbers hence why there has to be more of an overhaul than just a few bandaids to what we currently have and what is proposed on the Ikanam design.