Ikanam Biolab

Discussion in 'Test Server: Announcements' started by Freeze74, Nov 7, 2014.

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  1. Peasnriz

    The fundamental problem with Biolabs now is once saturation point hits there is no incentive for the defenders to leave their safe camping spots, that is only a problem if you believe every base should be equal for attackers and defenders.
    The other side not elucidated on so much is that biolabs are an effective choke point and that can be a good thing, because when the enemy has formed a mega zerg and you are getting steam rolled back through the lattice you have a point to stop the attack and break up the zerg as they drift away realising they are just getting farmed.
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  2. 3punkt14159

    I am a little bit feared becaus no dev is answering here, and it looks like it is like the other "suggestion thread" of the shield types. A lot of people sai nooooooo ,.. and at the end the implement it whit no change and no idear of any user,. .. just ignore all the opinions.,
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  3. Gammit

    Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation.
  4. ZenitHMaster

    Do not
    with Xelas. We all know how the only way to push out of that lab is to take A's at the outposts. ESPECIALLY west air dock
  5. ZenitHMaster

    Please add more cover near bottom, and rework teleporters, rather than just remove the shield and make neutral
  6. Whiteagle

    No problem.

    That's actually what I'm saying; Rework the Biolab legs so that we can get up to the Biolab INSIDE of them!
    This not only allows you to save on the number of assets needed to render, but also makes use of the underside of the Lab, something I believe has been neglected since Beta.

    The problem I have with this is the internal hard spawnpoints...
    For one, such a system can become quite chaotic, as seen with Freyr Amp Station.
    Two, the decrease in distance between Defender and Attacker spawns increases the fighting density.
    We can already see a symptom of this with the current Biolab Teleporter Rooms, which effectively act as Attacker Spawn Points, as well as the openings to the Air Pads where the fighting often stalls.
    Between any two Spawn Points, the majority of the fighting is going to occur near the mean of travel time halfway from one to another, baring any advantageous terrain on either side.

    This is the problem with the Air Pad openings currently, it takes just about as long for Attackers to get there via a Sunderer at the other end of the Grav Lifts or the Jump Pads as it does for Defenders.
    If the Pads were the Secondary Entry Point for the Biolabs this would probably be fine, but as the Primary Entrance this creates those huge Biolab Grinders because nether side has an advantage over the other without huge population disparities.

    Most of the current Teleporter Rooms actually favor the DEFENDERS since camping them is relatively easy to reinforce from their Spawn, with the only exception being the far Teleporter Room near the Shield Generator Building that slightly favors Attackers, due to both the difficulty of Defenders to get to it AND it's proximity to the Air Pad Opening.
    Of course, the Shieldless Teleporters on Test are even worse in these regards, as has already been pointed out in Roy's Video.

    This is why I'm actually in favor of a reduction in, if not outright elmenation of, Teleporters in Biolabs, since they further reduce the mean travel time in what is already a confined fighting space.

    What I would suggest is that the Biolabs' Legs be re-worked to be hollow passageways, creating four elevating corridors leading up to the Dome.
    These Corridors would be broken up by two Landings that would also make up the geometry of the Legs' Joints, one near the bottom and the other near the top, which would also create two Staging Rooms for Attackers OR Defenders to regroup and setup.

    I would not be against further Secondary Objectives being added to these rooms or a possible additional basement section to the Dome at a later time, but as you yourself said we first need a solid design, and such a Geometry overhaul would already take up a good deal of the Map Design Teams time.

    Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, such a Choke Point is very well suited to either small or fast insertions, but it does NOT SCALE AT ALL!
    Once you have a certain number of Defenders watching those Openings, you need exponentially increasing numbers to simply overwhelm them.
    As the Primary Entry Points, the majority of the Defenders' focus is ON THOSE PADS, which creates the Biolab meat grinder.
    What needs to happen is a shift in the Defenders' focus to the point that the Air Pads are not their largest concern, which is what I think making the Legs the Primary Means of Entry would do.

    Indeed, I'm actually one of the "Newbie" Old Guard that have been pushing for a return to the Original Planetside's Base Designs, or at the very least their Design Philosophy.
    This is why I strongly recommend people, especially newcomers like myself, to at least take a look at the old Game, because while it is very dated and has numerous flaws, one of the things they did very well was designing the map around Continental and GLOBAL Conquest Stratagem.

    Which reminds me, we should really start pushing for WORKING WARPGATES!
    Even if they do need to be limited to just giant Teleporter Beams for Vehicles, the ability to shift military assets from one map to another is what makes PLANETside PLANETSIDE.
    This also would possibly open the door for Naval Combat, where instead of going "Out of Bounds" you are transfer via "Teleport Buffer Screen" to one of several "Intercontinental Ocean" maps linking the lands of Auraxis together.
    This is also where a possible re-implementation of the Hex Territory System would probably work the best, being able to link together small Island Bases to form our own "Military Sea Lanes" between each Continent.
  7. vanu123

    It's beautiful.
  8. Mob720

    I have another idea, how about making the entire dome of the biolab like a generator-powered shield? Similar to gate shields, maybe have the generator at the base of the biolab (generating more of a fight on the ground, not just on the launchpads and putting those neutral teleporters to use). That way when the shield is down, the interior of the biolab can be prone to air attacks, making it entirely more three dimensional instead of camp entrances.

    Even better, how about making biolabs like the tech plants, each one has it's own unique features? One could be like today's live biolabs, another with some nice scaffolding and exterior, one with the shield gen... How about making use of the area between the actual biolab and the base? That would be neat to have more of a large structured base, rather than just a layer of battle on top and on bottom.
  9. Sneakle

    Jump pads: Make it so the faction that controls the adjacent zone/facility is only one who can use it ie you get a two way jump pad but only one factin can use it. One way is not good it will just be camped/farmed untill the landing pad is under controle by the defending faction.

    The old portal rooms will be overly camped which will be no fun. If you are to change in this direction why not try and random portal area inside, make a vicinity where players can port randomly so it's much much harder to camp. And harder to camp because you can add some solids here and there so you cant place turrets allover to farm/camp and assisting/surpressing fire will be harder aswell.

    I surgested a mobile portal some time ago, perhaps here or on ps7 forums, dont recall. One entry spot and one exit spot. If you remove the portals as is you can try to think about this.

    A mobile portal could be fun at biolab. Outside up there on the sides where all can walk around it, why not have a deployable portal the can go thru the wall but it has to be maintained by one or two players (engineers) and it goes both ways so an opposing faction can use them aswell (reward vs risc) But make it so only 2 or so can be placed around the entire biolab. Make them light up on the minimap/map like the motion sensors so all know where they are.

    If you remove the portals you need to add more ways in from outside like the 2 existing landing pads where the choke point normally are taking place. Imho it is only here it need a change so these arent so choky.

    One comment in this thread makes more sense than any other changes (dont recall who and cab to zip thru the thread again) and it's not thoe exact words.

    - Getting into the fight fast is essential, by removing the satelites and portal as is now you nullify this function and the fun fighting there.

    Or another idea. Why not have some of the shield (the shield between the structure you can see but not go thru) be maintained and destroyable/repairable with a generator or similar, or not a generator but somehitng else. And when that is down, a few random places will open up for infantry to get thru but add it on the minimap too see?
  10. Anasasi

    I know it may seem like it'll take way longer, but how about this:
    You take the base of Saurva, the octagon of walls and instead of having Anti-tank shields, etc. You just take the Biolab structure, lay the interior out on the ground in that size, then, take the dome - Place that so it covers the entire thing with some tweaks (Door ways, roof links, etc, etc.)

    Add a central Gen, no SCU. This generator is the Domes shield generator. Once taken down, ESFs, Libs and Gals can do their jobs whilst infantry still have *some* cover with the bars from the dome.

    This is like a 5 minute brainstorm, anything would be better than this new setup.
  11. Esailia

    Oh. My. God. Nerdgasm. Put this on an island on Auraxis, give spawn options the same as some amp stations (Controlling points will give spawn locations to your faction), and throw multiple SCUs and generators in there. I imagine multiple floors of gene banks, nurseries, science labs, med bays, quarters, gen/SCU rooms, balconies, courtyards, offices....All of this...unable to be attacked by air or vehicle. A pure infantry war.

    /Daydreaming over

    Anyway. To the changes of the biolab:
    It'll add an interesting spinoff to the usual biolab fight and the meta on how to attack them. Right now, if you have a sundy below the pad, everyone not near the fight will spawn there. the more experienced players might choose to spawn at nearby bases and jumppad to the biolab. With the change to removing return pads, and moving the pad away from the biolab from bases, it adds a place for sundys that are safe from immediate C4 attack. It also gives places for squads/platoons to safely congregate and prepare crashes to the pads, without being sniffed out by brave infils down the gravs to sundys under the pads.

    I don't have an opinion about other changes made yet, since I'm now updating my testside2 client.
  12. Loht

    The new Biolab looks good.
    After a few Minutes there was a freeze and i must kill the game with the taskmanager.
  13. Whiteagle

    Probably wouldn't work too well, Dev team had a lot of trouble with overhead Dome Shields in the past...

    This is what I've been getting at with redoing the Biolab Legs; Turning them into a structure usable to access the Dome from the ground, that way Attackers can fight UP the Legs and into the Dome proper.

    ...This is the EXACT opposite of what they want to do; De-coupling Biolab Capture from control of the Satellite Facilities!

    As for a random Teleporter, that's a whole other can of worms, relying on Teleporters to get into Biolabs is enough of a problem as it is, adding no Respawning Protection (Because that's pretty much what Teleporters DO, Respawn you at a set area.) AND an additional Randomization Mechanic is just ASKING for something to break and make the whole thing unusable.

    There was actually a time in Beta when Biolab Teleporters stopped working all together, which just goes to show us how an over reliance on them can create huge issues.

    Yes, this is why I don't agree with Roy's Video about the movement of the Jump Pads away from the Satellites, People will park a Sunderer at them no matter where they are.

    I don't agree with the removal of the Return Jump Pads though, because it leaves jumping in Attackers no means of Retreat and Defenders no means of pushing out.

    Well they really didn't DO all that much...
    Just put some walls in at the base of the Central Column, removed most of the Vehicle Pads and accompanying shields, then plunked down a few Base Build Assets to create some ground cover.
  14. Zpoc

    Ok, heres my idea: keep this the way it is (shocker, I know, but hear me out). Keep it the way it is, but get rid of the dome, that would make it atleast somewhat attackable. Whats that I hear? Light assaults and spawn beacons? Add air terminals to the satellites.
  15. Stumpy_Cat

    Just a few thoughts on the base after some play.

    The neutral teleporter receiving rooms are a camp fest. I will personally put all of my Max units in a nice circle around them. C4, claymores and suppressive fire will destroy people before they have character control. This is really not the idea you have stated as your goal. The available space would seem to make this idea a little cumbersome in the Bio Lab setting. You would need to put more cover for these rooms to even have a hope of holding them. After that is the problem of leaving them and getting to a capture point.

    The one way grav pads to the air pads are a nice change. This will mean a group will have to go enmass to have a chance of taking the pad from the satellite bases, aswell as stopping the annoying bouncing C4 players. The outgoing pads from the bio lab could do with limited line of sight the the satellite pads. To increase players wanting to group up on the satellite pads before going over.

    Moving on tho the base of the Bio labs. The main problem we found is that the defenders only have one direction out of the spawn.
    The current iteration of the Bio lab gives almost 360 coverage for counter attacks. In play the spawn became a tank mine magnet. The neutral teleporters are a magnet for Aircraft and tanks. If kept in place this will mean that the attackers will be concentrated into one big blob. It is to easy to farm with long range armor and aircraft. If kept in place as a system there will need to be restricted line of sight to prevent this. Trees to stop Aircraft and close hills or structures to reduce the range for tanks.

    In closing I would recommend the grav pad changes with none of the others, as taken together they make the bio lab to much of a farm fest and would discourage fights there unless overwhelming force could be brought to bear in a very short time from the attackers.

    Nice to see an evolution taking place in the bases. Thanks for the new tactical challenges.
  16. Carbon Copied

    There's plenty of discussion to be had with what may work (and I did type alot) but to keep on track with the topic I think we now need more interaction with what the design want to come up with instead as what's been proposed simply isn't enough of an overhaul to warrant going through with. Dev silence on it isn't exactly encouraging either.
  17. Whiteagle

    ...That's a TERRIBLE idea...
    One of the most loved features of a Biolab is how the Dome keeps Aircraft from camping everything...

    Well this is the whole reason I dislike the Biolab Teleporters in the first place; Tactically they serve as Attacker Spawn Buildings, and their close proximity to the Control Points is the only real means to defend against them.

    While I can understand removing the Return Jump Pads to prevent Attackers from simply bounding back and forth via a side step, I'm don't like they're outright gone since it removes the Defenders ability to Counterattack.

    I would have preferred them moved elsewhere on the Air Pad instead, so that one couldn't simply leap from one place to another

    Yeah, the bottom isn't a good change at all...
    As has been already pointed out, Attackers can even Deploy a Sunderer anywhere NEAR the Teleporters, so they have to footslog all the way to the center over open ground.

    Meanwhile, Defending Infantry can just take the Spawn Room Teleporter down and run around the corner to engage at the Column base, but the only one Vehicle exit is going to HAVE to be Camped by Attackers just to keep their own Infantry from being fodder for Defending Armor.

    Yeah, re-adding returning Jump Pads on a different area of the Air Pad would be a simple enough fix if it was needed, but it definitely helps to have the Launch Pads separated from the Satellite Bases.

    Indeed, DEVS, WHAT SAY YOU?!?!
  18. Runegrace

    The teleporters are currently MUCH worse for camping, though the idea of being able to fully siege a Biolab without having ALL the satellites is certainly nice. There are people asking for larger Biolabs either through more sections up top or structure below, which while cool would require a complete re-model and more work than the devs are looking for I think. Here's something that basically does the same thing but with less work:

    -Lift the entire protective dome up and place a neutral see-through shield around the entire rim. This removes the ability for vehicles to bombard the Biolab but infantry and their bullets can pass through. Now the Biolab can be attacked from any angle and doesn't even NEED teleporters...at least not on the inside. You may want some of this shield rim to be solid, such as near the side with the spawn etc.

    -Where the legs are, you can place buildings with neutral teleporters that go to a small addition on the outside rim above. If defenders attempt to camp this they leave the interior and can themselves be camped by aircraft.

    -Remove the jumpads entirely unless there's something directly in the region that they would actually go to, such as the Biolabs with the AMP Station-like walls, which again should be neutral pads. You don't need these if there are already teleporters plus a grav-lift.

    Something like this might be a better direction to go in order to get a better fight out of Biolabs. Opening up the rim to travel brings the surrounding region into play, effectively increasing the play space.
  19. xxlotucxx

    My one Cent. Double the Size of the Airpad to the sides of them, and place the landingpads on "harder to camp"- platforms on them. right now they are to easy to camp. place return-jumppads in the center of the airpad so that defendes can easily attack back.

    Remove the NDZ on Biolabs, they are not needed there anyway, but place the Teleporter-Room on the surface in seperate Buildings, further away. For example in the 2nd Floor on any Building. So you can place a sunderer close to it but stil have to walk 20 sec before you can join the fight.

    This would reduce the Bio-lab in its role as a perma-chokepoint for battles and these are easy to make changes.
  20. RoyAwesome


    I think you misunderstand the whining. It's not easier to attack. It's MUCH MUCH MUCH harder
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