can anyone explain the current lib hate to me?

A spawn room camped by liberators suggests that particular battle was already uneven. If there's a 20/80 battle, and the 80% faction has locked down the spawn with libs, does that mean libs are OP? You can't take these kinds of situations and try to make them fit in with the context of lib balance discussions.

Liberators have no clear counter (No, ESFs are not a counter, the Lib can just flip over 180 degrees and instagib any fighter, which is ridiculous no matter how much "skeelz" it requires).

That is the problem in my opinion. Without a clear counter, everybody wants their preferred A2A weapon to become a counter against them, and ground players will just randomly cry for nerfs as they are getting constantly steamrolled by Liberators which can't be countered by their allies since they have no counter, and this creates the whackamole of "Buff X against Libs"/"Lib 2 OP against ground" threads.

The devs need to make an official statement (and implement it in-game) regarding what they want Libs to kill and be killed by.

"Skilled ESF Pilots come to forums, tell us that ESF's can easily kill Liberators. Skilled Liberator pilots come to forums, tell us that ESF's can easily kill Liberators.

Bad players ignore the above, make 5 new threads and the cycle repeats."
~PKFire

ESFs are a counter, if you have as many ESFs as lib crew you'll annihilate the lib. Same goes for skyguards and with skyguards you need only 2, less than the amount of men in the lib. I guarantee they aren't making long range dalton shots on your ESF if you're engaging the lib. Your logic is skewed, but even by your logic there is a counter to the lib, the battle gal. With more armor than the liberator and mortar/drake + walker can both be aimed on the lib at the same time. Not to mention ramming power of a composite battle gal.

If you're talking about the small percentage of people that can actually hit EFSs with the dalton that are doing more than hovering there are as many or more incredible ESF pilots. Those ESF pilots that could out maneuver/dodge and destroy those libs.

This is a FPS, land and air battle game. Stop trying to take the air out of the game. If you want a slow liberator make it 1 shot kill lightnings and 2 shot MBTs because the fire power of so called flying tank is laughable for a 150mm High Explosive Anti-Tank shell.

Skyguards are not a threat to libs...I fly solo lib a lot and occasionally pull skyguards (when air resources are low). I can 1 clip skyguard with a tankbuster. And if i miss - just slowdown and finish with a dalton. Then hit afterburners to get away from the remaining lightning.

Good lib crews are the true gods of the game. They can take out air, infantry and armor easier than anyone else. With 3 guns that can be used well against all targets ( shredder/dalton/zepher + buldog/walker+tankbuster - any of these combinations can be used in any situation). Shredder has been more of a threat lately if you know how to get close to your target.

The only time i die in a lib quickly is if i'm heavily outnumbered or facing an enemy with seriously superior skills. In other cases can always pull out of the battle for repair in worst case.

Nope, ESFs are not a counter right now because Dalton instagibbing ESFs is a regularily used gameplay "mechanic", which makes it so that a Lib flipping its belly at a fighter is basically like a Skyguard pointing its barrel at it. It may not necessarily kill the ESF, but would any sane pilot take that risk? No. Hence the ESF is not a reliable counter. And I have never, ever seen a hovering ESF being shot down by a Dalton (since those are usually taken out sooner by other ESFs or by ground AA), but I have seen plenty normal-flying ESFs getting instagibbed while trying to be a counter against Libs. It happens too often to be able to define ESFs as "counter".

And you can't really ask for pro pilots to be the only ones to be able to go up against a Liberator. Aces already dominate the ESF VS ESF field, what about letting other players play against Libs?

Also, who said anything about slow Liberators or killing the air game? Actually, I'd like ESFs to become a good Liberator counter, as that would improve the air game (by making Liberators high-priority targets for attackers and high-priority defend objectives for defenders,). Liberator speed is fine, what is not fine is them being able to do a 180 degrees flip in 2 seconds to repel even ESFs that jumped at it from high up.

If you're tank busting the Skyguard without needing to use the belly at all that means you're getting all with maybe the exception of one or two rounds of your magazine into him. Meaning 1) he is standing still the entire time you approach him or 2) he begins to drive under you which at the altitude to land TB max damage you would need to turn your nose down so much that most likely you would crash after unless you pulled a crazy somersault (which I'm not sure is possible in a lib at that altitude.) Not to mention the left/right turning of the lib is SO SLOW if he were turned either way and drove off (with racer chassis possibly without I'm not sure since I run racer) he could literally drive out of your sights faster than you can turn.

In the Skyguard I dodge lib fire from the nose or belly plenty. At 50+ km/h in the Skyguard they have a tough time landing while I'm unloading my flak on them. Driving at a decent speed while shooting a lib and avoiding obstacles is difficult I'll give you that. I don't have the awareness to avoid crashing every now and again. But is this such a crazy/difficult strategy that no one can think of or do it? Does everyone want to be able to STAND STILL, SHOOT and WIN? Ultimate battle tank, stand still use no tactics and blow everything away!

Just either last night or the night before I forget me and a couple other skyguards shot down 3 liberators and 10+ ESFs in a pretty short period of time. And yes the liberators were trying to kill us.

Okay if the people you're talking about are so horrible at flying ESFs that they can't flank a lib and take it out whatsoever... Then go A2A lock-ons certed into ammo and from just inside A2A ESF lock-on range blast them out of the air. That takes JUST ONE ESF to take a lib down as long as the pilot has enough brains to keep out of effective lib range.

Disclaimer: I'm one of these horrible ESF pilots but even I can get a lib to the point that it takes one missile to take down before I go down. solo.

fixed that for you

Well I will tell everyone a story and maybe it will clear up a few things ( READ IT ALL BEFORE JUDGING)

One time me and my Outfit were told of recent that libs are over powered and a lib pilots told us it was a bunch of Bull so we decided to test and see 5 People got in 1 sunderer

the rest except me got into Libs With anti tank and infantry attachments( the big Guns) for those who don't know but all the libs were filled up( we must have had like 16 libs)

So i got my ESF and decided to See it from the air and try and protect the libs( it turns out they didn't need protecting)

by the time it was all over We had over 500 Kills confirmed and we didn't even count how many vehicles we destroyed but It all ended when The enemy Got over 45 ESF coming at us and over haft of them went down with are libs Now of course non of you are going to believe this

Because it isn't true

I typed this down to show how stupid we all sound ("the lib is OP" "No its not you just suck"the average decision on Forumside)

Let me tell you my recent experiences from what has really happened

I am not a very dedicated pilot I find it annoying in everything except my NC character(it is my preference i play everyNation differently)

I and i do have a lib I pilot not much but I do pilot as my NC character the buff has been fun and I have been able to do more with my Lib now a days but still die quite a bit but i have become more effective

Now lets see it from the side of my other characters we will Start with my TR Character which I play a lot as a tanker (I prefer to be a tanker in as them get over it)

It has become nearly unbearable a lib of recent was able to stop an enter advance and it took out my prowler and my lighting before me and another enemy got tired of him and double teamed him in ESFs but we did kill him that was because he wasn't very good he consisted of a level 13 engineer and level 3 light assult

And that was just one instance But then again in my VS character i haven't notice any more libs than normal and it seems to be the same as it was before granted once a lib did a strafing run killing 2 tanks in front of me but not me

Now what my opinion of this is as you can tell I've been one both sides of the argument I like the Lib got some love but I don't like that there is nothing really to counter It so i can only give it a negative vote i am sorry to all of the pilots out there but it has become to power full

It has started ruining what would have been good fights Destroying not only ground but air as well makes it pointless to try and take on a lib with an ESF( if it is a very good crew the only thing that can kill them is 7 ESFs supported by AA(yes! something like that really happened) ) But I don't believe removing it or buffing it will solve any problems but cause new ones

there are a few things that i have seen on the forums that would make only minuet changes but make it stay the same.

( not all of these should be implemented just one take your pic Lib pilots( and only Lib pilot i want legitimate feed back) on which one you would think would have the least effect but the most at the same point in time)

1. make the ESF damage Libs much more Than they would normal people so two can effectively kill a Lib if it is caught out in the open with No ESF support

2. limit the mount of degrees a lib can turn so that the bell gun can be turned into a Anti air gun ( you have one of those one the tail use it)

3. Increase the range that A2A and G2A missile can lock on to Libs( and possibly gals but that is another topic)

4. Make a weapon that can only target libs and only be fired when targeted it costs certs to get and recourses to use and has about a 10 second reload and brings Libs down to about haft health with 1 shot.

5. reduce Lib speed and Maneuvering ability

that is most of it if anyone else can think of anything just Put the number and the Idea in an edited version of mine( it can't be getting rid of or nerfing the weaponry of the Lib)

and really lib pilots I want to see what you would like best if they were to implement one.

Have you read the posts in this thread? 16 liberators? Somehow your post doesn't seem relevant. That's a very large scale battle.
(I read your entire post.)

I've played PS2 pretty consistently on Mattherson the past 2 months after a long break since launch. I'm only an average player, I'm not that great. I just don't see what you guys are talking about. Like I've said before I play AP/AA lightning, AP mag, infantry, a little ESF and liberator. I've also fought against many liberators and know the name of one of the better pilots I fight against.

EXACTLY THIS.

/the end

You have what, several thousand hours in the Liberator?

I bet there are some ESF's that just dance around you filling you full of bullets.

If only...

This.

Also 90% of the posters in this topic have serious LTP issues. Main Liberator death reason with around 50% across all 3 factions is suicide.... If the Liberator was easy to fly and OP this wont be the case right?

Wrong and idiotic stuff is spilled around like:
Magriders are bad vs Liberators, while according to the official statistics Saron killed more libreators then some ESF nose cannons and a way more then Skyguards, AA turrets, Busters and AtG launchers.
Good Magrider Pilots position their gunners at proper places so Saron cut like butter the Liberators in close (100m) to medium( 200m) range if the user can lead his shots. If the Liberator pilot is bad and moves slow/sits at one place the range is extended to 300
Magrider was always the best AA tank in the game excluding short period where the anchored Prowler was better.
For the general amusement for 90% of the 1/2 tankers it requires a gunner to be effective like the Liberator do. It is team based game after all.

Dalton killing ESFs- only bad ESFs die to Dalton or it is lucky shots. Today I killed ESF with my Magrider default cannon, hence it is OP vs air right? Sadly statistics shows that less then 1% of ESFs die to Dalton.
Or you believe on selected moments taken from hundred hours of gameplay of several Air aces that are cut and edited and posted in youtube?

It is sad that whiners cannot cooperate and focus on teamplay instead of whining. Liberator is not OP, you are just too focused on whining instead of focusing your energy to learn how to counter Liberators.

It shouldn't take a skilled ESF pilot to kill a Liberator though.

If ESF's are supposed to be the counter to Lib's, as Lib's are a counter to tanks, then a Liberator should be as helpless before an ESF as an MBT is before a Liberator.

A mediocre ESF, or two, should be able to slaughter the absolute best Liberator Pilot and Gunners with no issues what so ever. Much as a mediocre Liberator can kill the most elite tank crew.

What really bugs me is that people keep going on and on about how one Skyguard can't handle a Liberator, skilled or unskilled. Do they assume that just by equipping the weapon, that they can just sit on a hill and enemy air just magically dies around them? A hard counter does not mean that one player is guaranteed to win, it means that the odds are still in his favor but he can still lose that fight if his opponent outplays him.

What this probably means is that the Saron gets the last hit before the lib crashes into terrain.

And that's all.

1500+...

Yes, there are some that are just not killable without help.

Lib flips over, 1 second later dead ESF. Alternatively, said ESF will retreat knowing that a Lib pointing its belly at you is too large of a risk to take, it's basically like trying to lolpod a Skyguard.

See the problem there?


Also, the whole "Only bad pilots are bad against libs" argument seems pretty much a quick way to dismiss the problem. If only bad pilots were bad against Libs and average and good ones were an effective counter, then how come you almost never see an ESF taking on a Liberator and not getting instagibbed or forced to pull out?

If only really good pilots can effectively counter Liberators, I need to inform you that the game is broken, as gameplay mechanics and counters should be designed with average players in mind, not the minority of 10 aces in an entire server. Again, someone may just shout "lol u bad l2p noob", but I ask you this again: If only bad players can't counter Liberators, then why, in an average PS2 session, you see plenty of Libs destroyed or forced away by ground AA but nearly no Libs being effectively engaged and countered by ESFs?

In my own experience every ESF I have seen engaging a Lib is either forced to retreat when the Lib flips, or if he tries to stay on target he is gibs no later than 10 seconds after the Lib flips; very rarely, he will be able to drive away the Liberator, but not destroy it due to the powerful tailguns (that were rightfully buffed and should be the most effective way of defending against ESFs). And before someone says that my entire server needs to l2p, I see plenty of ESFs having good, balanced and fair fights against other ESFs, yet none of them is able to effectively counter Liberators. It's ridiculous that some people treat countering a vehicle in the same way they treat hover-dogfights (you need skill etc...).