Zerk's not happy with Guards getting additional AA's

Bremer wrote:

The bottom line is that the Zerker EoF tree is crappy because Zerkers were overpowered in KoS. If you take a look at Assassni AA's in EoF, they are also crappy and they too were over powered in EoF. The AA trees were built without a 40 AA cap increase anticipated. In order to balance out the trees and the classes, they will most likely have to review/revamp AA trees because going 2 expansions with no choices of AA to invest in, is a problem. Zerkers need some tweaks, as do other classes.

But this whole argument/debate is just plain silly.

A DPS spec'd Zerker will always outparse a DPS spec'd Guardian. A defensively spec'd Zerker will always outparse a defensively spec'd guardian and tank just as well. You zerkers that think you have it bad have your heads in the clouds.

Jvaloth wrote:

Wow, I step away from the forums for a few days and a 9 page thread pops up about guardians vs. zerkers. I haven't seen that much activity on this board since the brawlers came over here to get our avoidance nerfed 2 years ago.
The bottom line is that zerkers don't benefit (that much) from AGI or WIS, and guardians don't benefit that much from WIS. So Guards have a 4th tree that they can dump those extra 20 points into and see some decent benefit and zerkers aren't getting much for those same 20 points.
But, it's not just zerkers that are having that problem, the extra AA are helping some classes more than others. My other toon is getting jack for 40 extra AA. I really think it's something that needs to be addressed gamewide TBH.

Wilin wrote:

Totally agree. EoF AA's were designed to strengthen or weaken classes from their KoS performances. With a new expansion coming out and 40 more AA points added, they will need to make adjustments.

Theres plenty of classes that have a right to request a review of their EoF AA's in light of the additional points to spend.

Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:

Any reduction in DPS sacrafices aggro management. This is true for both Guardians and Zerkers. A Guardian with low DPS will have aggro trouble. My examples of mit/defense buffing was to prove that Zerkers do have more defensive buffs than just HP regen.
Here are a guardian one, that show a sacrafice of aggro management (less DPS) for defense.

• 69 Wall of Force (basically the zerkers Wall of Ferocity) - Increases the physical mitigation of the guardian in exchange for decreased movement and attack speeds. Also grants a chance to root any opponent the guardian strikes and misses.

Wilin wrote:

The AGI tree AoE ability is usable by Zerkers 76% of the time (1- (Duration / Recast) or (1 - (36/155)), if they spam Open Wounds every time it comes up. Yea it's not as effective for them as it is a guardian, but 76% of the time is still a substantial amount of time.
Plus the AGI line has more than just the AoE ability. It has 1 extra AoE attack and a very nice end ability.

oh yeah sure. All heroic/epic content comes in groups...
Most of the content is single target espescially for epics incase you didn't notice.

I am not sure why we need to have the "Us vs. Them" discussion.

I think we all can agree that Berserkers need some love in their EoF Tree.

But the "You get more than we do and that's why we are pissed" doesn't help in my opinion.

I want a strong berserker class as well. And I can understand the frustration - but the sky isn't falling

zormik wrote:

That is exactly the reason I don't spec the AGI line. I tried it for a month and compared to buckler spec with STR/STA/INT, it sucked for me from a DPS standpoint. The AGI line does not suit my play style.
I have no issue maintaining group agro. I just manage hate the same way guardians have always had to do it. Depending on the AGI to be your group hate mangement as a guardian is not so smart anyway. Yes it help a little, but does not replace the work you have to do if you have a big AOE hitter anyway.
Let's don't forget that gear has a lot to do with DPS. Especially the weapon you use combined with the optimal AA setup to support that gear/weapon mix.
I outparse a lot of people as a guardian, in groups, solo, and on raids. Player skill + gear + AAs makes the difference. Once you start figuring in the ability to play your character at the max potential and the level of gear and CAs and your AA mix, any concept of balance goes out the window anyway.
Plus, any tank's DPS in a raid is highly dependent on the support classes. Give me a group with a dirge, illus and warden buffs as a DPSer, let me run in full offensive and I can parse over 2K easy.
Put a zerker in that same group with the same buffs and equivalent gear and he will parse 600 to 1K DPS better than me zonewide.
However, if I switch to Defensive stance my DPS drops 40%. But my survivability goes up dramatically.
Being able to put another 20 AA points into my warrior tree is going to make my DPS better, of course. But I promise you, it won't be going into the AGI line. There are much better places to spend it for optimal DPS based on my play style and current gear.
I would think that would be true for each player: AA's will be chosen based on what works best for you. The cookie cutter route is not so smart if you want to make sure you are getting the max benefit. I parse everything to make sure I am getting the max out of my gear, AAs etc. DPS, Dmg Taken, Hit %, Crits, you name it.
I use that information to refine my setups, CA order, AAs and the lot of it.
So no matter what, there will always be a wide variance in tanks of the same class, and tanks of difference classes unless you set them up exactly the same, with the same level of skill for each class.
I don't see these balance issues everyone is talking about as being that severe.
In my opinion, SONY does not balance us for raiding anyway. I bet if you ask a dev, and can get an answer, all classes are balanced at the lowest common denominator: Treasured gear and Adept 1, against solo and group content. Not raid gear and masters against raid content other than to make sure it all scales up correctly.
If you compare classes like that, the difference is much larger in the BASE classes than it would be at raid level. The disparity comes about once you add in raid gear, Masters, AA builds. etc. Then I think you see classes begin to merge rather than separate.
It sounds to me from the posts I have been reading that berzerkers just simply want to out DPS us. But they already do. So the question is, how much is enough to make you guys happy? Zonewide 300-400 DPS? Or does it need to be 1K DPS?
Good luck with that.

I know a Zerker that took CT as his diety. one of CT's miracles is to fear/root a mob for one full minute. I watched as he beat down a 72 heroic in that minute while it was fear/rooted. Show me a guard that can do that. Zerker dps is in no danger from guards.

I'm a zerker and I have made a few posts countering the arguement of the majority of berserker community. However i will say this, we still cannot talk about beta and t8 ...all I can say at this point is, berserker keep your cool for another week and you shall hear what we got /drool

Thank you ZhouynTheGreat! I finally a positive note! I would like to say that I am not unhappy with guards getting additional aa's, just hope that zerkers will still be classified as a dps plate fighter once all this rok stuff is released.

Halbarad@Blackburrow wrote:

Well said.

Truthfully I hope Zerkers get some EoF AA love. God knows when I was a zerker and I saw that tree I was somewhat bewildered by the lackluster choices. 2 expansions with no meaningful AA choices to invest in is not cool.

well i would like to note that the zerk forum has turned into a stirred up beehive, generally that doesn't happen if everyone is happy with how things are turning up. personally i am just waiting to see what happens, the NDA isn't helping people keep their cool much through all of this though so many are jumping to conclusions, which is easily understandable if you're on the other side of the fence.

In the last 8 months I have been a raid MT i have found when I join a new guild or pick up raid and a zerker is up front, its not that there bad tanks, its the player that sucks.

Yes us Guards have some snap agrro tools, but you have to be at least half decent to play a guard and hold agrro on adds.

When Rok comes out I want to roll a Zerker and see what all the beef is about!

<Join my petition, no more nub tanks!> =p

Rob626 wrote:

I have given up posting on the guard forums... bad bad things seem to happen to me when i do.

Wow this zerker / guardian thing is a battle that will never be won.
Remember guys if they are both so close just pick the one you want to play and realize you may have differences.
Here is what our guild / Alliance does .. First MT is the guardian in full defensive mode this means his dps is lowered beyound belief. MA is preferably a Zerker or other plate class with Zerker being prefered above others. We have used Zerkers in the past as MT and it worked great till the Zerker got jealouse of the up and coming guardians and split so he could be MT somewhere else.
One reason to raise DPS is to increase hate for the guardians. Its not to take the zerkers job away from them its to help keep agro without the update to several of the spells they had to do something.
I have heard this same argument from the original beta on and its getting tiring.. All I hear is whining whining an whining. BOTH classes have good and bad. If you want to find out whats hard try playing a troub solo or something. (I play a guardian but have played a troub and zerker) you will find that zerkers and guardians are both awesome but were meant to be very very close and soe had changed things yes but being the MT is not the most glorious thing in a raid. DPS is not the main thing for a TANK! the main thing for a tank to think about is AGRO! If a tank looses it the soft skins die really quick and the raid goes bust. Mitigation and agro are key points for main tanking. ( not including any of the resist thats all upgradeable for both classes) I think the fighting over the little bit of a change a guardian gets over a zerker or the other way around is driving people crazy. just remember Guardians were always meant to be the main tank with zerkers doing better solo. SOE said that in one of the old forums I wish I could find.

forget it, my opinion doesn't matter in this thread apparently.

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

I agree, alot of zerkers knew our DPS was grousely over powered in KoS and I agree that it is the reason we didn't get a very big upgrade to our DPS in EoF tree. People complain on the zerkers forums that it takes too long to cast these AoE skills, but with RoK items reducing the cast speed of CA abilities and items that increase CA damage by a base percentage, Zerkers will stay and always will be the one and only AoE tank, won't matter how much AA you give a Guard, Zerker will always be the preferred AoE tank.
I didn't read all of this post cause there really is no need too, over the last 3 years this game has been released, every time there is a new level cap raise, there is this debate that takes place here in the forums about Zerkers getting the shaft.
I apologize for my Zerker brethern guys, they feel that you guys are some how taking something away from us and I really don't see that happening, I think it is overreacting for the main part. Like some of you have pointed out, alot of you have already been spec'd in the AGI line for over a year, so realistically, like I said, its all overreaction.
If berserkers had anything to remotely argue about, it would be that Berserk is slowly being drowned out by the dimishing returns on Haste/DPS mod because of the amount of items and tier of buffs out there now, not hard to be in a group or on a raid in a group that is giving you over 150 to each making Berserk pretty much useless, which of course, this has nothing to do with Guardians at all.

I've removed more detritus from the thread. Last warning, guys...if you can't keep it clean, this thread will be locked and the topic will have to be dropped.

Thank you in advance!